Chain mail

eftihis · 19th September 2021, 07:11 PM

This chain mail was a US museum aquisition in the 1920s, and was sold some years ago as they demisnished their collection raising funds for who knows what! It was described as "ottoman, modified for use in North Africa". Any comments about age and origin?

Battara · 19th September 2021, 09:18 PM

This appears to be 4-in-1 chainmaille that was common. The links seem to be made of steel so I would guess Ottoman or possibly India (less likely Persia). Not European.

Oliver Pinchot · 21st September 2021, 03:57 AM

Please upload a hi-res closeup of the rings. Thanks

mariusgmioc · 21st September 2021, 09:52 AM

Yes, good quality close-ups of the rings would be very useful.

Anyhow, from what I see from these photos, the chainmail appears to be simply butted not riveted.

If true, this may mean the chainmail is quite recent or, if genuinely antique, it would indicate a cheaper piece of equipment.

For reference, see the photo below:

left-riveted
right-butted

mariusgmioc · 21st September 2021, 10:06 AM

Upon more in-depth examination of the photos, I believe this is a mix of antique and modern work, containing a piece of genuine, antique chainmail (the upper part) that was completed with some modern additions.

Please have a look at the cropped photo below and you may notice the upper part (red arrows) appears to be riveted and shows significantly more age signs than the lower part (purple arrows showing a very visible difference in oxidation). Also, the lower part, or at least some parts of it, appears to be butted (yellow arrows).

Now the difference in the in the oxidation of the rings between the upper part and lower part may also be because the mail was only partially cleaned. Since the upper part has inserted leather strips, it could not be cleaned the same way like the lower part, thus retained more of its age patina/oxidation.

But then again, better close-ups of the rings can reveal much more.

Other important indicators (besides the joining technology of the rings) may be the thickness of the wire of the rings, the diameter of the rings and the surface quality of the rings.

Any difference in the thickness of the wire and/or diameter of the rings would indicate that the mail was made from two different pieces joint together.

Any difference in the surface quality of the rings would indicate that the mail is made by pieces belonging to different time periods.

asomotif · 21st September 2021, 02:34 PM

Interesting comments Marius.

Did you read the first post

: It was described as "ottoman, modified for use in North Africa".

Ps . close ups of the various rings would be nice, and probably helpfull for determination.

Best regards,
Willem

Battara · 22nd September 2021, 02:58 AM

Nice catch Marius!

eftihis · 22nd September 2021, 08:11 AM

Thanks for your comments! Some close ups from ypper, middle and lower sections.

ausjulius · 23rd September 2021, 09:45 AM

nice, looks original to me.. probably made long ago from two differnent peices. as iot says in north africa. you cna see the links are all of uneven sizes.. as in the days before nice rolls of wire things just were not so consistant.

mariusgmioc · 23rd September 2021, 05:36 PM

Thank you for the close-ups!

So it is riveted.

And it has clear signs of age.

Original antique, most likely made of two pieces joined together (since the riveting part if the rings is distinctively different for the upper vs. the lower part).

19th September 2021, 07:11 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Chain mail This chain mail was a US museum aquisition in the 1920s, and was sold some years ago as they demisnished their collection raising funds for who knows what! It was described as "ottoman, modified for use in North Africa". Any comments about age and origin? Attached Images

21st September 2021, 09:52 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yes, good quality close-ups of the rings would be very useful. Anyhow, from what I see from these photos, the chainmail appears to be simply butted not riveted. If true, this may mean the chainmail is quite recent or, if genuinely antique, it would indicate a cheaper piece of equipment. For reference, see the photo below: left-riveted right-butted Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st September 2021 at 11:39 AM.

21st September 2021, 10:06 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Upon more in-depth examination of the photos, I believe this is a mix of antique and modern work, containing a piece of genuine, antique chainmail (the upper part) that was completed with some modern additions. Please have a look at the cropped photo below and you may notice the upper part (red arrows) appears to be riveted and shows significantly more age signs than the lower part (purple arrows showing a very visible difference in oxidation). Also, the lower part, or at least some parts of it, appears to be butted (yellow arrows). Now the difference in the in the oxidation of the rings between the upper part and lower part may also be because the mail was only partially cleaned. Since the upper part has inserted leather strips, it could not be cleaned the same way like the lower part, thus retained more of its age patina/oxidation. But then again, better close-ups of the rings can reveal much more. Other important indicators (besides the joining technology of the rings) may be the thickness of the wire of the rings, the diameter of the rings and the surface quality of the rings. Any difference in the thickness of the wire and/or diameter of the rings would indicate that the mail was made from two different pieces joint together. Any difference in the surface quality of the rings would indicate that the mail is made by pieces belonging to different time periods. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st September 2021 at 11:38 AM.

22nd September 2021, 08:11 AM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Thanks for your comments! Some close ups from ypper, middle and lower sections. Attached Images

19th September 2021, 09:18 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	This appears to be 4-in-1 chainmaille that was common. The links seem to be made of steel so I would guess Ottoman or possibly India (less likely Persia). Not European.

21st September 2021, 03:57 AM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Please upload a hi-res closeup of the rings. Thanks

21st September 2021, 02:34 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Interesting comments Marius. Did you read the first post : It was described as "ottoman, modified for use in North Africa". Ps . close ups of the various rings would be nice, and probably helpfull for determination. Best regards, Willem

22nd September 2021, 02:58 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Nice catch Marius!

23rd September 2021, 09:45 AM	#9
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	nice, looks original to me.. probably made long ago from two differnent peices. as iot says in north africa. you cna see the links are all of uneven sizes.. as in the days before nice rolls of wire things just were not so consistant.

23rd September 2021, 05:36 PM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you for the close-ups! So it is riveted. And it has clear signs of age. Original antique, most likely made of two pieces joined together (since the riveting part if the rings is distinctively different for the upper vs. the lower part).