More about dha/daab nomenclature

Mark · 23rd June 2006, 11:51 PM

I am starting a new thread so as not to get Flavio's too far off-topic.

Puff, you referred to Ian's and Kronchew's daab as "hua mon." What is the meaning of "mon?" I immediately thought of the "Mon" people of SEA, who are related to the Khmer and were at one time all across the lowlands of Thailand. Any connection?

In any event, I was suddenly struck by the similarity between this tip type and that on one of the few depictions of daab in the reliefs of Angkor Wat (held by the horsemen on the left):

Pretty much the same tip, I think.

Ian · 24th June 2006, 04:29 AM

Mark:

I always marvel at the attention to detail and accuracy of the depictions in this bas relief. The mak carried by the front horsemen is indistinguishable from the utility axe used by the upland peoples (Montagnard) of Laos and Vietnam. The shaft is a bamboo stem with the attached root at a right angle to the handle. The style is virtually unchanged in 700 years. If we can see the axe (mak) in its original form, why not the saber (dahb) of that time persisting today in some areas?

Ian.

PUFF · 28th June 2006, 01:10 PM

Hi Mark, Mon for Dahb Hua Mon 's pronounce with similar vowel with "tone". In this case Mon 's adj., describe curve, un-pointy shape.

And, in Thai, Mon for Mon people 's pronounce with similar vowel with "John". Some dialect may pronounce like "Mone" or "Maan", though.

Regarding to that Angkor Wat 's reliefs, there are a few things to be aware of.

#1 There are inscibed text under the pic. If my memory 's right, the figure legend describes "nei siam kuk" (Siamese men) in Suryavarman 's army. The march may include both Siamese/Khmer men. Siamese men in the front and Khmer men behind, or vise versa. My memory could be wrong. But it 's worth to check.

#2 Art works in SE region oftenly depict weapons in their design at artist 's time/local. Many art works, which are made in modern time, depicting Ayuthaya (and also Burmese) soldiers with very modern Thai Dahb.

#3 (may not related to this Ankor Wat case) Many Ramayana related art works depict weapons in the design of Thai artist's concept (influenced by Indian culture), which are rarely used by ordinary Siamese soldiers. Most of them are for only symbolic or ceremonial use.

Andrew · 28th June 2006, 01:43 PM

As always, many thanks for your input, Puff. Can you direct us to any Thai art (bas relief or otherwise) depicting weapons as a primary or secondary subject?

I'm aware of some 17thc. paintings with the 10 lives of the Buddha as the subject which show a pretty good selection of Ayutthaya period swords. Ruel Macaraeg, a poster on another forum, has shared excellent artwork, including portraits showing dress and side arms.

Unfortunatly, however, my search of western sources for this artwork has been exhausted.

Best,
Andrew

Mark · 28th June 2006, 11:39 PM

Thanks for the great information, Puff. I had also read in a book about Angkor that it is believed that this particular mural was carved by Siamese artists, quite possibly in the 14th century (and not in the 12th, contemporary with the building of Angkor Wat). It also said that a number of groups in the army were readily identifiable as Siamese, Khmer, Cham, etc, but I didn't realize these particular one were identified as Siamese. That is very significant, I think. The reliefs at Angkor are among the very few pieces of evidence that a daab-like sword was used by the Khmer, and it would seem that what it is in fact confirming is that it is a Siamese weapon and not Khmer.

23rd June 2006, 11:51 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	More about dha/daab nomenclature I am starting a new thread so as not to get Flavio's too far off-topic. Puff, you referred to Ian's and Kronchew's daab as "hua mon." What is the meaning of "mon?" I immediately thought of the "Mon" people of SEA, who are related to the Khmer and were at one time all across the lowlands of Thailand. Any connection? In any event, I was suddenly struck by the similarity between this tip type and that on one of the few depictions of daab in the reliefs of Angkor Wat (held by the horsemen on the left): Pretty much the same tip, I think.

24th June 2006, 04:29 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Excellent point Mark ... Mark: I always marvel at the attention to detail and accuracy of the depictions in this bas relief. The mak carried by the front horsemen is indistinguishable from the utility axe used by the upland peoples (Montagnard) of Laos and Vietnam. The shaft is a bamboo stem with the attached root at a right angle to the handle. The style is virtually unchanged in 700 years. If we can see the axe (mak) in its original form, why not the saber (dahb) of that time persisting today in some areas? Ian.

28th June 2006, 01:10 PM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi Mark, Mon for Dahb Hua Mon 's pronounce with similar vowel with "tone". In this case Mon 's adj., describe curve, un-pointy shape. And, in Thai, Mon for Mon people 's pronounce with similar vowel with "John". Some dialect may pronounce like "Mone" or "Maan", though. Regarding to that Angkor Wat 's reliefs, there are a few things to be aware of. #1 There are inscibed text under the pic. If my memory 's right, the figure legend describes "nei siam kuk" (Siamese men) in Suryavarman 's army. The march may include both Siamese/Khmer men. Siamese men in the front and Khmer men behind, or vise versa. My memory could be wrong. But it 's worth to check. #2 Art works in SE region oftenly depict weapons in their design at artist 's time/local. Many art works, which are made in modern time, depicting Ayuthaya (and also Burmese) soldiers with very modern Thai Dahb. #3 (may not related to this Ankor Wat case) Many Ramayana related art works depict weapons in the design of Thai artist's concept (influenced by Indian culture), which are rarely used by ordinary Siamese soldiers. Most of them are for only symbolic or ceremonial use.

28th June 2006, 01:43 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	As always, many thanks for your input, Puff. Can you direct us to any Thai art (bas relief or otherwise) depicting weapons as a primary or secondary subject? I'm aware of some 17thc. paintings with the 10 lives of the Buddha as the subject which show a pretty good selection of Ayutthaya period swords. Ruel Macaraeg, a poster on another forum, has shared excellent artwork, including portraits showing dress and side arms. Unfortunatly, however, my search of western sources for this artwork has been exhausted. Best, Andrew

28th June 2006, 11:39 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks for the great information, Puff. I had also read in a book about Angkor that it is believed that this particular mural was carved by Siamese artists, quite possibly in the 14th century (and not in the 12th, contemporary with the building of Angkor Wat). It also said that a number of groups in the army were readily identifiable as Siamese, Khmer, Cham, etc, but I didn't realize these particular one were identified as Siamese. That is very significant, I think. The reliefs at Angkor are among the very few pieces of evidence that a daab-like sword was used by the Khmer, and it would seem that what it is in fact confirming is that it is a Siamese weapon and not Khmer.