Found it in Maui

kino · 2nd October 2008, 05:19 AM

I was in search of edged weapons during my vacation. The only Moro sandata I came across was the touristy type in Oahu. My luck turned in Maui. I found the Keris' a few doors down from where the Sewah was formerly residing. I believe the ivory hilted one is from Madura, and the Kocet-Kocetan is from Bali. The one from Madura has an odd blade. I could be totally wrong about the area of origin.

Photos are not very good. Here in Washington, we are plunging into darkness
early.

Comments would be appreciated.

drdavid · 2nd October 2008, 12:51 PM

Hi Kino
the ivory hilt certainly looks like Madura, the classic winged horse appears, I dont recognise the blade, I am sure some of the members with more knowledge will help
david

Spunjer · 2nd October 2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

I was in search of edged weapons during my vacation. The only Moro sandata I came across was the touristy type in Oahu. My luck turned in Maui. I found the Keris' a few doors down from where the Sewah was formerly residing. I believe the ivory hilted one is from Madura, and the Kocet-Kocetan is from Bali. The one from Madura has an odd blade. I could be totally wrong about the area of origin.

Photos are not very good. Here in Washington, we are plunging into darkness
early.

Comments would be appreciated.

kino,

i don't think that's ivory. i believe that's lava from haleakala. that's kapu, brah. you gotta send it to me so i can cleanse it. either that or one of your junggayan ivory barungs. i'm sure that will appease the aumakuas..

right on, good find braddah! when you were in oahu, did you check out the antique store by ala moana shopping center? i believe it's called Antique Alley...
also, did you go see the moro collection at bishop museum?

David · 2nd October 2008, 03:50 PM

Hi Kino, nice finds. I don't believe i have ever see a blade quite like the one with the Madurese ivory hilt. I'd like to see how it looks cleaned up. The sheath looks Balinese. Does this blade fit snuggly in it's sheath? Hopefull someone will come up with some info on that.
The Bali keris is also a beaut! Nice double pamor.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2008, 10:33 PM

These two keris are an assembly of some nice, but unrelated, parts.

The ivory hilt is Sumenep, Madura, the blade on that hilt is a very ordinary old blade that has been altered to make it more attractive for sale, the mendak, is low grade pasar quality, the wrongko is Balinese, and appears to be quite respectable.

The kocet-kocetan hilt appears to be well carved, but it is fitted with a pendongkok, probably Peninsula, the blade on this hilt may, or may not be Balinese, I cannot say without handling it, in any case, its a nice older blade, the wrongko for this keris looks as if it could be good; if the atasan (top cross piece) is ebony, that combined with the very nice timoho gandar, makes it a good wrongko.

These are married pieces, my guess is that they were put together by a dealer or collector outside of Indonesia---this type of marriage is exceedingly rare in Indonesia. However, as I have said, a collection of quite decent pieces that could be redistributed when the opportunity occurs to create good, genuine keris. The only real dud is the blade that somebody took the Makita to.

kino · 3rd October 2008, 04:30 AM

Howzit Spunjer,

I get chicken skin now. Maybe my anting-anting will protect me. Went to the Bishop Museum but did not see any Moro weapons. A section was closed off due to construction. They get plenny Oceanic clubs, spears and shields.
Antique Alley get choke things for sale but no Moro sandata. Kahuku store get 2 touristy Kris'.

David, the Madurese hilted Keris, scabbard doesn't fit well.

Alan, thanks for the info. I knew they had some age to them, but not too keen on spotting quality.

An additional photo of the blade with the holes. It seems to be spltting apart.

asomotif · 3rd October 2008, 10:02 PM

The Kocetan hilt is very nice and that one has a splendid pamor too.

Worth to get a better (balinese) pendogkok / selut

And the madurese hilt is very nice too as a single piece on a small stand

Best regards,
Willem

kulbuntet · 8th October 2008, 11:57 PM

Bali Blade looks great. dwi warna pamor? Maybe little bit small, Hindu javanese Empu?

David · 9th October 2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Bali Blade looks great. dwi warna pamor? Maybe little bit small, Hindu javanese Empu?

Hard to catch up with you Kulbuntet. You seem omnipresent, you appear to be posting everywhere at once.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.
I have at least one small Bali keris (less than 33 cm.). I don't think that there is any Javanese influence in the size though. Bali keris are generally larger than Javanese, but exceptions always exist.

kulbuntet · 9th October 2008, 05:39 PM

Hi David,
Thank you for welcoming me. I enjoy being on this forum.

A friend of me told me that since the arival of the islam on Java, alot of hindu Javanese people left for bali and lombok taking their empu with them. The Hindu Javanese emupu were doeing their thing on bali, making bali keris with javanese style. My friend says he can tel the difrence between A keris made by al hindu bali empoe and a hindu javanese empu, by looking at the soshoran and gonjo. The hindu javanese seens to be thinner and and less robust than the hindu bali ones. iff i look at kerisses with a bali style willah and sarong within this perspecif i see what he means, and it sound logical.

btw sorry for my bad writen englisch.. i have a good excuse..im Dutch

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2008, 11:10 PM

Differentiation of Balinese and Javanese blades is not difficult, but I would leave the "Hindu" out of it.

Hindu Javanese refers to Majapahit and before, that is pre-1525 (nominal date).

Almost 500 years ago.

Let's get fair dinkum.

David · 10th October 2008, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Let's get fair dinkum.

Had to look that one up Alan. You Aussies have some fun expressions.

Kulbuntet, as i understand it the culture of the Majapahit kingdom pretty much moved to Bali after it's fall at the beginning of the 14th century. I don't think you can divide blades made after this time as Javanese Hindu vs. Bali Hindu. At that point it's pretty much just Balinese. The Balinese keris do seem to have then developed into a larger and more robust form. I am not sure that this was the case before the fall of the Majapahit though. Bali was then under the influence of the kingdom as it was centered in Jawa and i believe that the proper pakem of that kraton would dictate the form that keris blades took regardless of whether they were made in Jawa or Bali.

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2008, 04:54 AM

My apologies David, I usually try not to write in the way in which I speak, as I realise that much of my normal patois would be totally incomprehensible to most speakers of the English language. That one just slipped by me.

I'm not so sure that the idea of "pakem" existed in old Jawa. I feel that a lot of the nit-picking categorisation that goes on with the keris possibly did not begin to occur until after the resurgence of Javanism that occurred during the Kartosuro era.Twenty years ago I would have thought that this had reached its peak during the 1920's and 1930's, but I would have been wrong. It seems to me that more pigeon holes get added every day.

How much this contributes towards the understanding of the keris, I am as yet uncertain.

David · 10th October 2008, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My apologies David, I usually try not to write in the way in which I speak, as I realise that much of my normal patois would be totally incomprehensible to most speakers of the English language. That one just slipped by me.

No problem Alan. It allows me to practice my google.

kulbuntet · 16th October 2008, 12:01 AM

But were there in late matharam no hindu religion on Java?

I don't know for sure but my friend is a dunkun he poses more than 300 keris, a lot of them are Bali/lombok keris.. he show me what he meant. He hindu javanese that left to go to bali made bali keris over there, the sarong was made balinese the hulu balinese the blade aswel. But in the forging of the blade there was a slight javanese style. Seen on the gonjo and the sorsoran. I wil try to show the difrence to what i mean.

Hindu balinese bali keris

Hind Javanese bali/lombok keris

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2008, 01:57 AM

What we are dabbling in here is the classification of blades:- tangguh.

The first blade shown here does appear to be a typical Balinese blade, the second blade shown appears to be a Javanese blade.

I would not be definite about either unless I handled them.

In the real world, Javanese blades get dressed in Balinese dress, Balinese blades get dressed in Javanese dress, Javanese blades in fact get dressed in all sorts of dress, and this has been the case for many, many years, because Javanese blades have been an item of trade across S.E.Asia, and as far as Sri Lanka, since at least the 15th century. Bugis blades appear in Sumatran dress. Madurese smiths worked all over S.E. Asia, and are reputed to have made blades in the Moro style in Brunei.

Lombok blades are inclined to be a little exaggerated. If it is Lombok origin, but from a Javanese influenced maker, it will exhibit the features of probably Mataram, but will be a bit bigger and a bit more exaggerated than a true Mataram blade. Lombok blades in Lombok style will in most cases be extreme and often display unusual features. Lombok/Bali blades are often very, very difficult to distinguish from Bali blades made in Bali--I would not guarantee that I could do it.

As for Hindu smiths in late Mataram Jawa, well, there may have been a few holdouts in isolated places. Maybe down around Banyuwangi. But then what is "late Mataram"? Some people would count this through to around 1825. Probably second half 17th century might be more reasonable, but then in keris terms you have Amangkurat, and that was Islam predominating in Jawa. Yes, Hindu influences remain in Javanese culture through until today, especially in palace culture, but Islam was the dominant external religious influence in Jawa from around 1525.

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

kulbuntet · 20th October 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

Oke Alan thanks for shearing you knowledge. now an other question, if a Javanese empu made a Bali blade by Bali "pakem", it goes into a Bali sarong and gets a Bali uwer and hilt, would it not get reconised by others as a not "realy" Balinese? Or can it never get indicated as "difrent"?

Regards Michel

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2008, 12:42 AM

Michel, you have raised a hypothetical situation that to the best of my knowledge never existed in a historical context, and cannot now exist.

Let us take a slightly different situation:- if somebody who is not Javanese were to make a Javanese blade according to a Javanese pattern, and using Javanese methods and materials, can anybody guess the origin of the maker?

I would suggest that that blade would be recognised as Javanese.

All blades from their various points of origin in both time and place display certain characteristics. If a person with sufficient talent, sufficient understanding, and sufficient access to resources wishes, those characteristics can be copied.

The major indicators are what determines the classification of a blade, so in the case of your hypothetical, if the Javanese maker lacked the necessary talent, understanding and access to resources, his blade would finish up as still a Javanese blade. If he had the necessary talent, understanding, and access to resources, his blade would finish as indistinguishable in all ways from a Balinese blade made by a Balinese maker.

In Bali, many blades that are regarded as "pusaka", are in fact of Javanese origin.

In Jawa, blades of the Banten classification, and the Blambangan classification , possess characteristics that can easily mislead to classification as a Balinese blade.

Further, blades of Surakarta classification, if removed from point of origin when still in new condition, are often very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate from Balinese blades.

There is a general rule in keris description:- a complete keris is classified according to its dress, thus a complete keris in Surakarta or Jogjakarta or other Javanese dress, with a Bugis blade is described as a Javanese keris. It is only when the blade is considered separately from the dress that the blade will be classified as Bugis.

2nd October 2008, 05:19 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,001	Found it in Maui I was in search of edged weapons during my vacation. The only Moro sandata I came across was the touristy type in Oahu. My luck turned in Maui. I found the Keris' a few doors down from where the Sewah was formerly residing. I believe the ivory hilted one is from Madura, and the Kocet-Kocetan is from Bali. The one from Madura has an odd blade. I could be totally wrong about the area of origin. Photos are not very good. Here in Washington, we are plunging into darkness early. Comments would be appreciated. Attached Images

3rd October 2008, 04:30 AM	#6
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,001	Howzit Spunjer, I get chicken skin now. Maybe my anting-anting will protect me. Went to the Bishop Museum but did not see any Moro weapons. A section was closed off due to construction. They get plenny Oceanic clubs, spears and shields. Antique Alley get choke things for sale but no Moro sandata. Kahuku store get 2 touristy Kris'. David, the Madurese hilted Keris, scabbard doesn't fit well. Alan, thanks for the info. I knew they had some age to them, but not too keen on spotting quality. An additional photo of the blade with the holes. It seems to be spltting apart. Attached Images

2nd October 2008, 12:51 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Kino the ivory hilt certainly looks like Madura, the classic winged horse appears, I dont recognise the blade, I am sure some of the members with more knowledge will help david

2nd October 2008, 03:50 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Hi Kino, nice finds. I don't believe i have ever see a blade quite like the one with the Madurese ivory hilt. I'd like to see how it looks cleaned up. The sheath looks Balinese. Does this blade fit snuggly in it's sheath? Hopefull someone will come up with some info on that. The Bali keris is also a beaut! Nice double pamor.

2nd October 2008, 10:33 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	These two keris are an assembly of some nice, but unrelated, parts. The ivory hilt is Sumenep, Madura, the blade on that hilt is a very ordinary old blade that has been altered to make it more attractive for sale, the mendak, is low grade pasar quality, the wrongko is Balinese, and appears to be quite respectable. The kocet-kocetan hilt appears to be well carved, but it is fitted with a pendongkok, probably Peninsula, the blade on this hilt may, or may not be Balinese, I cannot say without handling it, in any case, its a nice older blade, the wrongko for this keris looks as if it could be good; if the atasan (top cross piece) is ebony, that combined with the very nice timoho gandar, makes it a good wrongko. These are married pieces, my guess is that they were put together by a dealer or collector outside of Indonesia---this type of marriage is exceedingly rare in Indonesia. However, as I have said, a collection of quite decent pieces that could be redistributed when the opportunity occurs to create good, genuine keris. The only real dud is the blade that somebody took the Makita to.

3rd October 2008, 10:02 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	The Kocetan hilt is very nice and that one has a splendid pamor too. Worth to get a better (balinese) pendogkok / selut And the madurese hilt is very nice too as a single piece on a small stand Best regards, Willem

8th October 2008, 11:57 PM	#8
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Bali Blade looks great. dwi warna pamor? Maybe little bit small, Hindu javanese Empu?

9th October 2008, 05:39 PM	#10
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi David, Thank you for welcoming me. I enjoy being on this forum. A friend of me told me that since the arival of the islam on Java, alot of hindu Javanese people left for bali and lombok taking their empu with them. The Hindu Javanese emupu were doeing their thing on bali, making bali keris with javanese style. My friend says he can tel the difrence between A keris made by al hindu bali empoe and a hindu javanese empu, by looking at the soshoran and gonjo. The hindu javanese seens to be thinner and and less robust than the hindu bali ones. iff i look at kerisses with a bali style willah and sarong within this perspecif i see what he means, and it sound logical. btw sorry for my bad writen englisch.. i have a good excuse..im Dutch

9th October 2008, 11:10 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Differentiation of Balinese and Javanese blades is not difficult, but I would leave the "Hindu" out of it. Hindu Javanese refers to Majapahit and before, that is pre-1525 (nominal date). Almost 500 years ago. Let's get fair dinkum.

10th October 2008, 04:54 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	My apologies David, I usually try not to write in the way in which I speak, as I realise that much of my normal patois would be totally incomprehensible to most speakers of the English language. That one just slipped by me. I'm not so sure that the idea of "pakem" existed in old Jawa. I feel that a lot of the nit-picking categorisation that goes on with the keris possibly did not begin to occur until after the resurgence of Javanism that occurred during the Kartosuro era.Twenty years ago I would have thought that this had reached its peak during the 1920's and 1930's, but I would have been wrong. It seems to me that more pigeon holes get added every day. How much this contributes towards the understanding of the keris, I am as yet uncertain.

16th October 2008, 12:01 AM	#15
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	But were there in late matharam no hindu religion on Java? I don't know for sure but my friend is a dunkun he poses more than 300 keris, a lot of them are Bali/lombok keris.. he show me what he meant. He hindu javanese that left to go to bali made bali keris over there, the sarong was made balinese the hulu balinese the blade aswel. But in the forging of the blade there was a slight javanese style. Seen on the gonjo and the sorsoran. I wil try to show the difrence to what i mean. Hindu balinese bali keris Hind Javanese bali/lombok keris

16th October 2008, 01:57 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	What we are dabbling in here is the classification of blades:- tangguh. The first blade shown here does appear to be a typical Balinese blade, the second blade shown appears to be a Javanese blade. I would not be definite about either unless I handled them. In the real world, Javanese blades get dressed in Balinese dress, Balinese blades get dressed in Javanese dress, Javanese blades in fact get dressed in all sorts of dress, and this has been the case for many, many years, because Javanese blades have been an item of trade across S.E.Asia, and as far as Sri Lanka, since at least the 15th century. Bugis blades appear in Sumatran dress. Madurese smiths worked all over S.E. Asia, and are reputed to have made blades in the Moro style in Brunei. Lombok blades are inclined to be a little exaggerated. If it is Lombok origin, but from a Javanese influenced maker, it will exhibit the features of probably Mataram, but will be a bit bigger and a bit more exaggerated than a true Mataram blade. Lombok blades in Lombok style will in most cases be extreme and often display unusual features. Lombok/Bali blades are often very, very difficult to distinguish from Bali blades made in Bali--I would not guarantee that I could do it. As for Hindu smiths in late Mataram Jawa, well, there may have been a few holdouts in isolated places. Maybe down around Banyuwangi. But then what is "late Mataram"? Some people would count this through to around 1825. Probably second half 17th century might be more reasonable, but then in keris terms you have Amangkurat, and that was Islam predominating in Jawa. Yes, Hindu influences remain in Javanese culture through until today, especially in palace culture, but Islam was the dominant external religious influence in Jawa from around 1525. To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

21st October 2008, 12:42 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Michel, you have raised a hypothetical situation that to the best of my knowledge never existed in a historical context, and cannot now exist. Let us take a slightly different situation:- if somebody who is not Javanese were to make a Javanese blade according to a Javanese pattern, and using Javanese methods and materials, can anybody guess the origin of the maker? I would suggest that that blade would be recognised as Javanese. All blades from their various points of origin in both time and place display certain characteristics. If a person with sufficient talent, sufficient understanding, and sufficient access to resources wishes, those characteristics can be copied. The major indicators are what determines the classification of a blade, so in the case of your hypothetical, if the Javanese maker lacked the necessary talent, understanding and access to resources, his blade would finish up as still a Javanese blade. If he had the necessary talent, understanding, and access to resources, his blade would finish as indistinguishable in all ways from a Balinese blade made by a Balinese maker. In Bali, many blades that are regarded as "pusaka", are in fact of Javanese origin. In Jawa, blades of the Banten classification, and the Blambangan classification , possess characteristics that can easily mislead to classification as a Balinese blade. Further, blades of Surakarta classification, if removed from point of origin when still in new condition, are often very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate from Balinese blades. There is a general rule in keris description:- a complete keris is classified according to its dress, thus a complete keris in Surakarta or Jogjakarta or other Javanese dress, with a Bugis blade is described as a Javanese keris. It is only when the blade is considered separately from the dress that the blade will be classified as Bugis.