Modern 'wootz' going into commercial production.

Atlantia · 24th July 2011, 12:22 PM

An interesting development in the world of modern commercial swords.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to mention the company selling these as they are a currently available item so I won't.

I'm sure we have all seen the rapid development in Chinese sword-smithing in recent years, I guess it was just a matter of time before an approximation of wootz arrived.
I wonder if we will now see a flood of 'wootz' blades in antique forms?

Here is what I'm talking about, looks like wootz or perhaps shear steel. This sword is a commercially available model from a very famous company.
Described: "the sword’s most exciting feature is its Wootz steel construction. The centuries-old Asian technique of making superb Wootz steel (or Watered steel) sword blades has been lost to the world for several hundred years, but dedicated study and research have re-created the process and this sword is a testament to that dedication."
Thoughts?:

Gavin Nugent · 24th July 2011, 12:34 PM

IMHO, getting closer but no cigar, nothing close to the masterful blades of old....nice sales pitch though....

Gav

A.alnakkas · 24th July 2011, 01:55 PM

I dont want to sound like captain negative but whats so special about wootz? am a big fan of european trade blades :-P

ALEX · 24th July 2011, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

... whats so special about wootz?...

What's so special about gold? It's just a metal. Wootz is just a steel.
Like Salahuddin said in "Kingdom of Heaven" about what's special about Jerusalem: "Nothing... and Everything".

As for the new blade - looks like sheer steel or imitation(?) of sham wootz. just curious, are they forged i.e. manually/individually made or mass-produced?

A.alnakkas · 24th July 2011, 02:56 PM

Alex; indeed you are correct!

I have seen jambiyas with sheer steel, whats make it different from wootz and how come does it have a lesser value?

AJ1356 · 24th July 2011, 05:01 PM

I'de have to agree with close but No cigar. I don't think people who are into real antique swords would be into these. But it would sell to the the same group that buys repro katanas.

Atlantia · 24th July 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

...(cut)....Here is what I'm talking about, looks like wootz or perhaps shear steel....(cut)....

Hi Alex, exactly my initial thoughts. (shear steel).
I don't know what the process is, but as we've both noticed, the results are distinctive.

Battara · 24th July 2011, 07:20 PM

I've met with one wootz maker at a custom knife show. Great work, but can see a difference between old and new.

ALEX · 24th July 2011, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

...I have seen jambiyas with sheer steel, whats make it different from wootz and how come does it have a lesser value?

An important point: shear steel is not wootz! structurally they are not the same, and do not come from the same source. Shear steel does not require complex forging process and in terms of value, shear steel is simply regular steel mechanically manipulated.

ariel · 28th July 2011, 11:41 AM

I would suggest we pull together our first impressions of this masterpiece: what feature immediately prompted us to conclude it was not a real wootz?
For me, it was a striking uniformity of the pattern across the blade. Usually, with manual forging, the pattern of lines gets simplified along the edge ( likely, due to higher number and force of hammer strikes). Here, it is perfectly monotonous, indicating machine process.

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2011, 02:39 PM

All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel.

Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got.

Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day.

Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either.

I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me.

Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

Atlantia · 28th July 2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel.

Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got.

Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day.

Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either.

I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me.

Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

Ah, which takes us back to here doesn't it?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bowie

CharlesS · 28th July 2011, 03:32 PM

I agree with A.G....this looks more like etchant work that truely worked wootz.

Richard Furrer · 28th July 2011, 10:49 PM

As someone who makes both wootz and shear steel I can say a few things.

Could be alloy banding..a lot of that going on and some modern steels allow this effect to occur rather easily. I have seen this in 1050, 52100,1095, 5160, Modern S,D,H,W and T series tool steels and can be done with difficult with others.

Regardless of what pattern is on the surface the real key is two fold..is the pattern the result of carbides and what is the initial manufacturing process? This is dependent upon carbon levels and how the steel is thermally processed before and during forging and if it is done in a crucible or not. I also believe the argument that modern steels are melted in a crucible to be miss-leading.

Wootz on a mass produced modern Chinese sword?...let me think about that for a few years or more and I'll give you my opinion on that.

Ric

24th July 2011, 12:22 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Modern 'wootz' going into commercial production. An interesting development in the world of modern commercial swords. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to mention the company selling these as they are a currently available item so I won't. I'm sure we have all seen the rapid development in Chinese sword-smithing in recent years, I guess it was just a matter of time before an approximation of wootz arrived. I wonder if we will now see a flood of 'wootz' blades in antique forms? Here is what I'm talking about, looks like wootz or perhaps shear steel. This sword is a commercially available model from a very famous company. Described: "the sword’s most exciting feature is its Wootz steel construction. The centuries-old Asian technique of making superb Wootz steel (or Watered steel) sword blades has been lost to the world for several hundred years, but dedicated study and research have re-created the process and this sword is a testament to that dedication." Thoughts?: Attached Images

24th July 2011, 12:34 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	IMHO, getting closer but no cigar, nothing close to the masterful blades of old....nice sales pitch though.... Gav

24th July 2011, 01:55 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I dont want to sound like captain negative but whats so special about wootz? am a big fan of european trade blades :-P

24th July 2011, 02:56 PM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Alex; indeed you are correct! I have seen jambiyas with sheer steel, whats make it different from wootz and how come does it have a lesser value?

24th July 2011, 05:01 PM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I'de have to agree with close but No cigar. I don't think people who are into real antique swords would be into these. But it would sell to the the same group that buys repro katanas.

24th July 2011, 07:20 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I've met with one wootz maker at a custom knife show. Great work, but can see a difference between old and new.

28th July 2011, 11:41 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would suggest we pull together our first impressions of this masterpiece: what feature immediately prompted us to conclude it was not a real wootz? For me, it was a striking uniformity of the pattern across the blade. Usually, with manual forging, the pattern of lines gets simplified along the edge ( likely, due to higher number and force of hammer strikes). Here, it is perfectly monotonous, indicating machine process.

28th July 2011, 02:39 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel. Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got. Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day. Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either. I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me. Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

28th July 2011, 03:32 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I agree with A.G....this looks more like etchant work that truely worked wootz.

28th July 2011, 10:49 PM	#14
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	As someone who makes both wootz and shear steel I can say a few things. Could be alloy banding..a lot of that going on and some modern steels allow this effect to occur rather easily. I have seen this in 1050, 52100,1095, 5160, Modern S,D,H,W and T series tool steels and can be done with difficult with others. Regardless of what pattern is on the surface the real key is two fold..is the pattern the result of carbides and what is the initial manufacturing process? This is dependent upon carbon levels and how the steel is thermally processed before and during forging and if it is done in a crucible or not. I also believe the argument that modern steels are melted in a crucible to be miss-leading. Wootz on a mass produced modern Chinese sword?...let me think about that for a few years or more and I'll give you my opinion on that. Ric