Packing, Shipping and Insurance

Mark · 17th November 2005, 10:24 PM

Post here questions specifically about the packing and shipping process (how, what, why & when). You can also post here questions about how insurance will be handled, though I suggest that questions that include details of value be directed via e-mail or PM, so that you don't have to reveal your collection's value if you do not want to.

Before posting here, however, please read my Welcome post up at the top of the forum, including the instructions page linked in it near the bottom.

Rick · 17th November 2005, 10:38 PM

We all know that cardboard boxes take a beating ; I recently received a sword from overseas and the cardboard box had been literally torn in half ; the only thing holding the two sections of the box together was the customs declaration . Thank God the sword was flexible and in a soft leather scabbard !

I'm planning on shipping every piece that will fit in PVC waste tubing . This material is incredibly strong and rigid ; I believe the inside diameters range up to six inches . Also available are end caps to fit each size of tubing . This tubing is usually sold in 6-10 foot length (the caps are sold separately) .

I will cut it into appropriate lengths figuring for a couple of inches overlap of the length of the particular piece (or more) for each end .
The sword , spear , or whatever will be packed tightly inside the tube and the proper end caps will be TAPED on (no glue) . Using this method I expect my pieces to stand up to most any kind of rough handling that can be dished out ; they can also be returned in the same tube to you .

The weight is not that much more than cardboard and the piece of mind is well worth the extra expense ....plus they're reusable !

Antonio Cejunior · 17th November 2005, 11:26 PM

Rick,

Actually let me add a few comments on my own personal experience and Museum experience with the recent Masters of Fire Exhibition, please refer to the Preparations page

I have always used FedEx and spent a fortune, and never had a problem.

You see, the shipping being sponsored by FedEx means they will be taking extra care for their name is at stake. It happened with the Masters of Fire and everything came in pristine condition.

As you can see there were even FedEx boxes with a plastic tube inside.

I agree with light PVC tubing, but please don't settle for anything yet. We still have time. Let me talk to FedEx after the Grand Prix which makes me grumpy.

But again, you will receive special labels from us to download and print.

Look at this page with Shipping Instructions.

In due time I will put something up similar. FedEx contacted every FedEx station once they have all smiths (contributors in our case) addresses and gave them special instructions in handling. Anyone who would make a problem would be in trouble.

It may not be so soon, but let me get back at you folks, once I have news.
The recent exhibition is a good experience and reference.

Best,
Antonio

Federico · 18th November 2005, 03:11 AM

Jumping ahead of myself here, since we are not yet to the point of shipping, any suggestions as to where I can get shipping materials? I had contemplated making a wooden crate, and then lining the inside with foam cells so that my whole contribution could be shipped in one package, but realize that would mean one really big crate. I like the PVC tubing idea, though I do not have scrap and would need to buy all the tubing at the hardware store. I understand we will get vouchers for the actual shipping, but will the packaging materials be re-imursed? Particularly if many individual shipments have to be made, I can see the cost for purchasing tubing and appropriate cushioning materials may be quite high.

Antonio Cejunior · 18th November 2005, 10:53 AM

Hi Fred,

Please have patience. Packing is an art as I have learned many years ago with the people of the Gulbenkian Foundation in Lisbon, and without having enough information at the moment, depending on what the shipping list is, I cannot develop further information.

Please be patient

Mark · 18th November 2005, 01:46 PM

We still don't know how much material is coming from where, and likely there will one be a single answer to your question. While it showed FedEx's competence and care, the Masters of Fire exhibition is a case somewhat different case from ours, because only one piece was coming from each contributor. Still, FedEx ships elephants, so they can handle our swords (and will recommend the best way to package them), when that time comes.

To be honest, with respect to working on my own section, the shipping process itself is the thing I personally am least worried about. I am obsession over what we need to have in it and how to arrange it! I keep sending re-writes of our article to my poor collaborators before they even have a chance to revise the last one.

If you have ever known someone that has been in what is called a "12-step" program, you might have heard the Serenity Prayer (I hope I have this right):

Quote:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the strength to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

If you turn this around a little, you get Mark's Serenity Blessing:

Quote:

God, thank you for the serenity of not having to worry about things I don't have to, and not worrying excessively about the things I do, and the ability to appreciate the difference.

Antonio Cejunior · 19th November 2005, 12:15 PM

Wow

Amen.

God, grant me the grace to become a lawyer when I grow up, so
I can write these kinda things and what not?

Okay, jokes off now. I agree. I will help with suggestions when the time comes.
One has to assess first how many final swords one is shipping.

Mark · 24th February 2006, 08:34 PM

Hi, folks.

Now that we all are turning to the packing and shipping process, I've started to focus on some issues. Mostly, what packing materials to use?

A big issue that has to be kept in mind is weight. Naturally, a fiberglass or aluminum gun case or a wooden crate would be nice and safe, but those are going to weight too much.

For the Masters of Fire exhibition, I understand that FedEx set a 5kg per package weight limit, and that is very likely going to happen for History of Steel as well. That means most of us will have to divide our contributions into several packages. Bear in mind that the Museum is paying for all of this, and the shipping alone is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars. It is going to be crucial to strike the right balance between protection and weight.

We have spoken a little about using PVC pipe, which would be very good, but I am afraid about the weight factor. It was used successfully by many of the Masters of Fire smiths, but they each had only one sword to ship. I am going to buy some and do a trial package of three or four bundled pipes to see how much it weighs. Rick has found some stuff that looks very sturdy and is not too expensive (again I don't have the link right now, but I'll add it), but I still wonder at the weight factor. If I can I'll get some of that this week-end, too, and do a weight trial. Added: the pipe is called ADS and is $4.00 per foot in 8" diameter

Now, we all love our collections and want the safe, but let's be honest. Haven't we all used cardboard most of the time for shipping, even internationally? And how many problems have their been, at least when the internal packing was careful? Personally, I have not had a single problem in the course of dozens of cardboard-packed swords. The only packing failures I have had have been when I or the other guy used a recycled box/tube that was weakened from prior use.

Antonio has put up a page with some suggestions on how to pack in carboard tubes. I'll add in the link later because I don't have it on this computer. Please consider this way of doing it, at least for the swords & knives. I am pretty sure that I will use this packing when it comes down to it. It will keep money in the budget for things like catalogue printing and promotion, which will be key to the exhibition's success. Obviously, axes, shields, armor, puppets (yes, I have two Burmese marionettes with swords that we might use!), etc., need a different treatment.

But in any case, let's get the ideas out here for discussion on the forum, so we can share the knowledge and experience and find the best way to do this.

Mark

Link to pipe manufacturer: http://www.ferguson.com/

Spunjer · 25th February 2006, 07:01 AM

Quote:

I understand that FedEx set a 5kg per package weight limit

is the weight definite? i was talking to rick about the tube issue. my problem is i can't find anyone here in this bustling metropolis of chillicothe that carry anything similar to that. i will be going on midnite shift this coming week, not to mention, a big competition for me on march 4(next weekend), and getting ready for that big time. needless to say, it's gonna be a hectic week.
as for packaging, i found a box at work, 50"x10"x10", rated at 165lbs/sq in. i was gonna line it with masonite, then place all the swords in it (individually bubble wrapped and peanut packed).
my other option was gonna run me around $919.00 (pvc pipe, caps)...

if i order that on the link provided, will i have enuff time to get it? when is this gonna ship anyways?

Antonio Cejunior · 25th February 2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

is the weight definite? i was talking to rick about the tube issue. my problem is i can't find anyone here in this bustling metropolis of chillicothe that carry anything similar to that. i will be going on midnite shift this coming week, not to mention, a big competition for me on march 4(next weekend), and getting ready for that big time. needless to say, it's gonna be a hectic week.
as for packaging, i found a box at work, 50"x10"x10", rated at 165lbs/sq in. i was gonna line it with masonite, then place all the swords in it (individually bubble wrapped and peanut packed).
my other option was gonna run me around $919.00 (pvc pipe, caps)...

if i order that on the link provided, will i have enuff time to get it? when is this gonna ship anyways?

Hi Spunjer and everybody else,

Let me share my experience.

1. I have tens of boxes, simple cardboxes for swords sent through the last ten years through FedEx to me. Never had I one single accident of any kind.

Here's a quick shot of some:

Presently this package below, another cardoboard box is coming my way like this:

on my instructions.

Now, because of the quantity involved, 125 parcels more or less, at an average maximum of 5 kilos per sword x US$135 one way, we obtain the sum of US$16.875 one way and that is why FedEx did not want to sponsor, because they would be sponsoring a total of US$33.750.

2. Any of us knows that a Katana cannot weight more than 1.3 kgs or it is not usable. This leaves 3.7 kgs for packing, meaning the the packing weight is almost triple the contents weight.

3. I am speaking about my experience. But that does not mean that FedEx will not inform all agencies and will not coordinate it for us. That is why I have double asked you your addresses.

Quote:

as for packaging, i found a box at work, 50"x10"x10", rated at 165lbs/sq in. i was gonna line it with masonite, then place all the swords in it (individually bubble wrapped and peanut packed

4. I think I must explain something Spunger. FedEx is not a transporation company. It is a Courier, with limit sizes.

You might face the No-no from FedEx or they will charge so much that no one will be comfortable.

I sent instructions and no one asked many questions although Rick was at hand to help.

5. Physics tells us that if you bind together 4 cardboard tubes or 3, the forces exerted are absorved by the tubes and if bound together like this

they are more than solid.

6. I will not take the responsibility of saying that you should use this or that. I sent you suggestions.
I'm saying that if you use a light PVC or cardboard tube it will not be harmed because International Air Courier uses platforms where they place everything in palettes.

Mark made an appeal because I was/am very busy, and I just hope you all gentleman understand that since the beggining we said that this was made by everyone, and this is part of the collective process.

My shipping experience, including Tang Dynasty statuettes and Large Tang horses and I was trained at the world's third largest foundation, the Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation in Portugal. I am sharing what I know and I said that the moment you imobilize a sword inside a tube with a ring made of bubble wrap, the sword will be very secure. But ultimately I will not take any responsibility on how you choose to ship.

The instructions I sent are here, once more:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...structions.htm

We will pay the shipments as there is no other way. But we made our budget when the negotiations failes based on the ratio of one sword = almost 3 times packing weight, resulting in those 5 kilos I mentioned as a rule.

I can't share my own international experience or imposed it to anyone of you. Your contributions are the reason for this exhibition. If all of you wish to ponder and use ingenuity, that's fine. There are also many administrative processes that are inside red tape that is necessary, so I am just filling you all in, in this issue.

Thank you.

Rick · 25th February 2006, 05:17 PM

Antonio , you show in your illustration four tubes taped together ; presumably the parcel would be four swords (one per tube) ; now this parcel as shown would have one waybill , correct ?

The question I must ask is that with the 5 kilo weight limit wouldn't the four tubes taped together exceed five kilos by quite a bit ?

If this is the case should we then opt to ship more and lighter packages rather than fewer and heavier packages ?

If this has already been covered then please excuse me I can be somewhat dense at times ; sometimes I need things spelled out more clearly .

Rick

Spunjer · 25th February 2006, 10:19 PM

antonio

Quote:

4. I think I must explain something Spunger. FedEx is not a transporation company. It is a Courier, with limit sizes. You might face the No-no from FedEx or they will charge so much that no one will be comfortable.

I sent instructions and no one asked many questions although Rick was at hand to help.

as per your instructions, i did forward my dilemma to rick. i will explain again what i'm facing here:

1)RZ6 (tenegre) and RZ7 (visayan bolo) are the only swords that will fit on a 4 inch diameter tube. these tubes (cardboard or PVC) can be purchased at our local hardware, so that's no problem.

2)RZ4 (barung) has a 5 inch wide scabbard appendage. since tubes are available in even numbers only, i have to place it in a 6 inch tube. now this is getting kinda hairy since i can't find a cardboard tube at this size, and i have to go with PVC tubes, which if should i purchase it, i have to buy a minimum of 10 feet. kinda overkill especially i only needed 26 inches.

3)RZ3 (kampilan) and RZ5 (panabas) posed the biggest problem. with the kampilan, i need an 8 inch diameter tube due to the staple and hair. as for the panabas, i also need an 8 inch diameter tube, due to the way it's shaped. understand, antonio, that i live in a small town. i don't have the same access if i was living in a city. so with that in mind, i found one place that carries an 8 inch diameter tube (PVC). here's the deal on that. the minimum footage that i can get from this store is twenty feet. fine. if i get twenty feet, i might as well place each sword on an 8 inch diameter pipe. now i'm gonna need 12 caps for it to cover the pipe. so here's the quote that i got from the store:

8 inch diameter pvc pipe = $7.15/ft @ 20 ft = $143.00
end caps =$43.18 @ 12 pcs = $518.16
( i told rick that i was going to use a screw cap but that would run me around $900.00)

so i'm looking at around $700.00 for packaging. i really don't think you want that.

as for the ADS pipe pictured above, i wasn't able to contact the stores in columbus since they are close on the weekends.

Quote:

FedEx is not a transporation company. It is a Courier, with limit sizes

i understand that, antonio, that's why i called fedex and gave them the dimension of the box that i previously mentioned (50x10x10). the gentleman on the other side told me that there's no problem whatsoever. now, i don't know the intricacies of shipping internationally since this is the very first time that i'm doing this. it might seem like this a very simple problem top you, but what i'm trying to do here is understand what's going on, and utilizing what i have on hand. i have no clue whatsoever that fedex is sponsoring this and that, or it has a prerequisite weight per package.

the bottom line is, these are my option so far, and i am trying my best to come up with something. i really thought that the box was a good idea, since it will be packed together, therefore cheaper, but according to your explanation, i would guess not.

regards

ron

Antonio Cejunior · 25th February 2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Antonio , you show in your illustration four tubes taped together ; presumably the parcel would be four swords (one per tube) ; now this parcel as shown would have one waybill , correct ?

The question I must ask is that with the 5 kilo weight limit wouldn't the four tubes taped together exceed five kilos by quite a bit ?

Rick,

I did say to tape four tubes, but I didn't say that each WAYBILL had to have 5 kilos. The Waybill issue is to reduce the number of parcels (4 tubes taped together should weight 20 kilos maximum and be considered 1 parcel
constituted by four tubes

Quote:

If this is the case should we then opt to ship more and lighter packages rather than fewer and heavier packages ?

If this has already been covered then please excuse me I can be somewhat dense at times ; sometimes I need things spelled out more clearly .

Rick

No problem. The first part of the answer replies to the second one and it is good for everyone.
Everything boils to the same old question put into the present context:
which is heavier? 5 kilos of raw cotton of 5 kilos of steel?

Furthermore to save weight, one can place 2 swords in one tube. It then means that one tube's weight is split into two swords.

There can be many variations.

Ron, I'll be with you in about 1 hour, sorry but its me alone on this side of planning and coordinating

Antonio Cejunior · 26th February 2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

antonio

as per your instructions, i did forward my dilemma to rick. i will explain again what i'm facing here:

1)RZ6 (tenegre) and RZ7 (visayan bolo) are the only swords that will fit on a 4 inch diameter tube. these tubes (cardboard or PVC) can be purchased at our local hardware, so that's no problem.

2)RZ4 (barung) has a 5 inch wide scabbard appendage. since tubes are available in even numbers only, i have to place it in a 6 inch tube. now this is getting kinda hairy since i can't find a cardboard tube at this size, and i have to go with PVC tubes, which if should i purchase it, i have to buy a minimum of 10 feet. kinda overkill especially i only needed 26 inches.

3)RZ3 (kampilan) and RZ5 (panabas) posed the biggest problem. with the kampilan, i need an 8 inch diameter tube due to the staple and hair. as for the panabas, i also need an 8 inch diameter tube, due to the way it's shaped. understand, antonio, that i live in a small town. i don't have the same access if i was living in a city. so with that in mind, i found one place that carries an 8 inch diameter tube (PVC). here's the deal on that. the minimum footage that i can get from this store is twenty feet. fine. if i get twenty feet, i might as well place each sword on an 8 inch diameter pipe. now i'm gonna need 12 caps for it to cover the pipe. so here's the quote that i got from the store:

8 inch diameter pvc pipe = $7.15/ft @ 20 ft = $143.00
end caps =$43.18 @ 12 pcs = $518.16
( i told rick that i was going to use a screw cap but that would run me around $900.00)

so i'm looking at around $700.00 for packaging. i really don't think you want that.

as for the ADS pipe pictured above, i wasn't able to contact the stores in columbus since they are close on the weekends.

i understand that, antonio, that's why i called fedex and gave them the dimension of the box that i previously mentioned (50x10x10). the gentleman on the other side told me that there's no problem whatsoever. now, i don't know the intricacies of shipping internationally since this is the very first time that i'm doing this. it might seem like this a very simple problem top you, but what i'm trying to do here is understand what's going on, and utilizing what i have on hand. i have no clue whatsoever that fedex is sponsoring this and that, or it has a prerequisite weight per package.

the bottom line is, these are my option so far, and i am trying my best to come up with something. i really thought that the box was a good idea, since it will be packed together, therefore cheaper, but according to your explanation, i would guess not.

regards

ron

Hi Ron

Read with interest and respect.

Sometimes tube is not the best solution, and we have to be creative.

During this period of work in another computer, I thought about your post and
mainly we have find solutions. Here's one that I submit to your consideration:

I'm sure you know this cardboard stuff. Should be quite affordable.

Now your problem is width. So here is how I would deal with it:

Choose a thicker cardboard and fold it like this, or you may want to fold a double width thickness (like a book) to accomodate thickness. Now slide the sword and close the three sides with tape. Is that strong enough? I would say it protects.

Now stack four or six swords with the same size, independently packed, one handle one side an the next one the handle on the other side and so forth.

Next tape the stack strongly. Its is simple, very affordable, matches the type of problem you have and stacked, it gains a very big solidity.

Same old story. Break one arrow is easy. Put a bundle and try to break it and you can't.

Hope this solution is to your satisfaction

I am just reccomending, saying that this is what I myself would do.

Best regards

Mark · 4th January 2007, 08:06 PM

bump

17th November 2005, 10:24 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Packing, Shipping and Insurance Post here questions specifically about the packing and shipping process (how, what, why & when). You can also post here questions about how insurance will be handled, though I suggest that questions that include details of value be directed via e-mail or PM, so that you don't have to reveal your collection's value if you do not want to. Before posting here, however, please read my Welcome post up at the top of the forum, including the instructions page linked in it near the bottom. Last edited by Mark; 4th January 2007 at 08:56 PM. Reason: removed link to instructions page, see "Welcome" thread above

17th November 2005, 10:38 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Packing Your Stuff We all know that cardboard boxes take a beating ; I recently received a sword from overseas and the cardboard box had been literally torn in half ; the only thing holding the two sections of the box together was the customs declaration . Thank God the sword was flexible and in a soft leather scabbard ! I'm planning on shipping every piece that will fit in PVC waste tubing . This material is incredibly strong and rigid ; I believe the inside diameters range up to six inches . Also available are end caps to fit each size of tubing . This tubing is usually sold in 6-10 foot length (the caps are sold separately) . I will cut it into appropriate lengths figuring for a couple of inches overlap of the length of the particular piece (or more) for each end . The sword , spear , or whatever will be packed tightly inside the tube and the proper end caps will be TAPED on (no glue) . Using this method I expect my pieces to stand up to most any kind of rough handling that can be dished out ; they can also be returned in the same tube to you . The weight is not that much more than cardboard and the piece of mind is well worth the extra expense ....plus they're reusable !

17th November 2005, 11:26 PM	#3
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	SOME RECENT EXPERIENCE Rick, Actually let me add a few comments on my own personal experience and Museum experience with the recent Masters of Fire Exhibition, please refer to the Preparations page I have always used FedEx and spent a fortune, and never had a problem. You see, the shipping being sponsored by FedEx means they will be taking extra care for their name is at stake. It happened with the Masters of Fire and everything came in pristine condition. As you can see there were even FedEx boxes with a plastic tube inside. I agree with light PVC tubing, but please don't settle for anything yet. We still have time. Let me talk to FedEx after the Grand Prix which makes me grumpy. But again, you will receive special labels from us to download and print. Look at this page with Shipping Instructions. In due time I will put something up similar. FedEx contacted every FedEx station once they have all smiths (contributors in our case) addresses and gave them special instructions in handling. Anyone who would make a problem would be in trouble. It may not be so soon, but let me get back at you folks, once I have news. The recent exhibition is a good experience and reference. Best, Antonio

24th February 2006, 08:34 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Some packing issues Hi, folks. Now that we all are turning to the packing and shipping process, I've started to focus on some issues. Mostly, what packing materials to use? A big issue that has to be kept in mind is weight. Naturally, a fiberglass or aluminum gun case or a wooden crate would be nice and safe, but those are going to weight too much. For the Masters of Fire exhibition, I understand that FedEx set a 5kg per package weight limit, and that is very likely going to happen for History of Steel as well. That means most of us will have to divide our contributions into several packages. Bear in mind that the Museum is paying for all of this, and the shipping alone is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars. It is going to be crucial to strike the right balance between protection and weight. We have spoken a little about using PVC pipe, which would be very good, but I am afraid about the weight factor. It was used successfully by many of the Masters of Fire smiths, but they each had only one sword to ship. I am going to buy some and do a trial package of three or four bundled pipes to see how much it weighs. Rick has found some stuff that looks very sturdy and is not too expensive (again I don't have the link right now, but I'll add it), but I still wonder at the weight factor. If I can I'll get some of that this week-end, too, and do a weight trial. Added: the pipe is called ADS and is $4.00 per foot in 8" diameter Now, we all love our collections and want the safe, but let's be honest. Haven't we all used cardboard most of the time for shipping, even internationally? And how many problems have their been, at least when the internal packing was careful? Personally, I have not had a single problem in the course of dozens of cardboard-packed swords. The only packing failures I have had have been when I or the other guy used a recycled box/tube that was weakened from prior use. Antonio has put up a page with some suggestions on how to pack in carboard tubes. I'll add in the link later because I don't have it on this computer. Please consider this way of doing it, at least for the swords & knives. I am pretty sure that I will use this packing when it comes down to it. It will keep money in the budget for things like catalogue printing and promotion, which will be key to the exhibition's success. Obviously, axes, shields, armor, puppets (yes, I have two Burmese marionettes with swords that we might use!), etc., need a different treatment. But in any case, let's get the ideas out here for discussion on the forum, so we can share the knowledge and experience and find the best way to do this. Mark Link to pipe manufacturer: http://www.ferguson.com/ Attached Images Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 24th February 2006 at 10:14 PM. Reason: I mistyped the weight -- 5kg NOT 50kg! Also added links and tube info

25th February 2006, 05:17 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Question ? Antonio , you show in your illustration four tubes taped together ; presumably the parcel would be four swords (one per tube) ; now this parcel as shown would have one waybill , correct ? The question I must ask is that with the 5 kilo weight limit wouldn't the four tubes taped together exceed five kilos by quite a bit ? If this is the case should we then opt to ship more and lighter packages rather than fewer and heavier packages ? If this has already been covered then please excuse me I can be somewhat dense at times ; sometimes I need things spelled out more clearly . Rick

18th November 2005, 03:11 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Jumping ahead of myself here, since we are not yet to the point of shipping, any suggestions as to where I can get shipping materials? I had contemplated making a wooden crate, and then lining the inside with foam cells so that my whole contribution could be shipped in one package, but realize that would mean one really big crate. I like the PVC tubing idea, though I do not have scrap and would need to buy all the tubing at the hardware store. I understand we will get vouchers for the actual shipping, but will the packaging materials be re-imursed? Particularly if many individual shipments have to be made, I can see the cost for purchasing tubing and appropriate cushioning materials may be quite high.

18th November 2005, 10:53 AM	#5
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Hi Fred, Please have patience. Packing is an art as I have learned many years ago with the people of the Gulbenkian Foundation in Lisbon, and without having enough information at the moment, depending on what the shipping list is, I cannot develop further information. Please be patient

19th November 2005, 12:15 PM	#7
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Wow Amen. God, grant me the grace to become a lawyer when I grow up, so I can write these kinda things and what not? Okay, jokes off now. I agree. I will help with suggestions when the time comes. One has to assess first how many final swords one is shipping.

4th January 2007, 08:06 PM	#15
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	bump