Photos from museum of Tabor. Czechia

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 10:33 PM

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Matchlock · 29th July 2009, 12:41 PM

Thank you, Spiridonov,

Actually, the first photo was taken at the Koninklijk Museum van het Leger en de Krijgsgeschiedenis, Brussels.
The three wrought iron tiller stock haquebuts/stick guns range among the earliest of their kind and were made in ca. 1430-50.

The second photo shows two Czech 'Hussite pipes', short round wrought iron socket guns of ca. 1430, the stick stocks are replacements. The barrels are about 40 cm long, with relatively small bores of ca. 16 mm. Note the characteristically small touch hole.

The bottom photo depicts a cast copper alloy haquebut barrel made at Nuremberg, about the earliest of its kind as the staging and the early form of the hook placed nearby the muzzle denote: ca. 1450-60.
Length 73,8 cm, cal. 19 mm. The tiller stock is missing from the unusually narrow socket. On first sight one tends to believe that a small portion of the stick stock has survived but the more detailed photos in one of the following posts clearly show that this not the case.
Of course, this heavy 'brass' or 'bronze' piece was not a handgun but was counted among light artillery.

I attach better quality scans of the Czech guns.

Michael

Spiridonov · 29th July 2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Actually, the first photo was taken at the Koninklijk Museum van het Leger en de Krijgsgeschiedenis, Brussels.
The three wrought iron tiller stock haquebuts/stick guns range among the earliest and were made in ca. 1430-50.

Michael

Sorry i miss with first photo

What do you thin about last photo? It is about 1490 ?

Matchlock · 29th July 2009, 02:18 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

Our posts have crossed each other.

You may have read by now that the bronze barrel on the bottom photo was made as early as ca. 1450-60.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 29th July 2009, 02:51 PM

I had remember that i had seen that barrel at german book of my friend. Its seems to be with cover. Is the 73,8 cm total lengh or barrel channal length?

Matchlock · 29th July 2009, 03:19 PM

You are right, Spiridonov,

I attach two detailed pictures which I took of that gun when it was on display at the Military Museum in Prague in 1995; you can see that the rectanguar pan around the touch hole on the top flat is a later repair, a working addition of ca. 1500, the once swiveling cover is missing.

The length of 73.8 cm must be the total length as the length of the bore is hardly ever measured.

The other barrel seen above the bronze gun seems to be somewhat earlier at first sight, ca. 1440-50, but the touch hole is already on the right side - maybe this, too, was a later working alteration and the original touch hole on the top side was nailed and shut as has been the case with many barrels. This is mere speculation, though.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 30th July 2009, 06:20 AM

Hi, Michael! Thaks for nice phtos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

you can see that the rectanguar pan around the touch hole on the top flat is a later repair, a working addition of ca. 1500

Why did you thinking that it is a later repair?

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Why did you thinking that it is a later repair?

Hi Spridonov,

Simply because, as I stated, pans and covers were not extant before ca. 1500. As this barrel is stylistically clearly earlier than 1500, the pan must be a later addition. If you look closely at the lower brim of the pan you will see traces of soldering.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 30th July 2009, 02:02 PM

Yes, you are right. I see that

Spiridonov · 30th July 2009, 02:10 PM

Where was stored a ramrod using the weapon of this kind?
It could be in the barrel channel on a march but during time when the barrel has been charged it it was impossible.

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 06:11 PM

Very good question indeed, Spiridonov!

Ramrods of Gothic and Renaissance artillery pieces, such as haquebuts/wallguns, were not an integral part of the stock and barrel, as was the case with handguns/arquebuses. To fully understand this answer one should bear in mind that such relatively heavy pieces were mounted on special carriages for field use which were often equipped with more than one haquebut. These carriages also held all the accouterments necessary for loading and cleaning the guns, including ramrods, readily measured and packed loads etc.

I attach some watercolors from the Landshuter Zeughausinventar, the armory inventory, set up by Ulrich Bessnitzer in 1485 (Landshut is a medieval city in Lower Bavaria mostly known for their armorers) depicting 'brass' or 'bronze' haquebut barrrels on their carriages together with all the loading implements which were stored in special painted wooden chests (Zeuglade, Zeug meaning weapons and Lade meaning chest).
The text to the first illustration states that 'Sechs Streitwagen zu Hagkenpuchsn', six war carriages for haquebuts, were kept in the Landshut armory in 1485!

The last illustration shows 'Hultzein Ladung', wooden containers for measured barrel loads of powder - the predecessors of bandoliers!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 06:36 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

Now back to your question about ramrods of portable handguns/arquebuses such as the small Hussite barrel of ca. 1430 which originally had a tiller stock: a stick stock usually had no provision for a ramrod and the latter had to be carried separately.

As we see on the Polish gun of ca. 1500 though, this problem was sometimes solved by drilling the tiller/stick stock out and storing the ramrod there (last picture).

Other clever solutions were mounting the ramrod on the left side of the forestock when a hook made a ramrod chanel impossible below the barrel, or make the hook with a loop for the rod to pass thru.

Samples attached.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 3rd August 2009, 10:06 PM

Hollow, Michael

I have some questions about this barrel:

1. What is the calibre of this gun?
2. I saw some brands on this weapon. It would be desirable to consider them more in detail if it is possible
3. How does the barrel connected with stock?
4. Was the barrel painted or not?
5. What is the strange metall tip at the ramrod?
6. was the stock been impregnated by something or not? For example, linen oil
7. How does it dated?

With the best regards, Alexander!

Spiridonov · 11th August 2009, 07:00 PM

can anybody aswear my questions?

Matchlock · 12th August 2009, 02:11 PM

Hi Alexander,

As to your questions about the early Pilsen handgun:

1. I do not know the caliber.

2. The marks on the stocks are no doubt owner's or arsenal markings. I will try and zoom them from the 100 year old photograph.

3. The barrel and stock seem to be connected only by means of the hook.

4. I don't know.

5. The iron finial of the ramrod is a scourer meant for cleaning the barrel walls.

6. I don't know.

7. I date the piece ca. 1430, the barrel may be as early as the late 14th century.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 12th August 2009, 03:42 PM

A zoom of the mark on the left side of the butt; it seems to be a simple arsenal or housemark.

Michael

Matchlock · 12th August 2009, 06:10 PM

Hi Alexander,

I did some research for you and found the data of that early Prague handgun/arquebus in an 1898 copy of the Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde:

The overall length of the gun is 113 cm, the barrel length 29.5 cm, the bore is 27 cm long and the caliber is 33 mm, the weight is 7.5 kg.

Unfortunately no information is provided on the color and finishing of the stock.

As I said I believe that the barrel is the oldest part of the gun, of. ca. 1390-1400 - hark, Fernando! - and the hook and stock are working additions of ca. 1430.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 12th August 2009, 08:28 PM

THank you! What do you think about bossibility of using this weapon at 1470 year? For axample Mosi gever was using about 60 years

Matchlock · 13th August 2009, 02:59 PM

Sure it is possible that that gun was in use up to the 1470's.

Best,
Michael

SVEN · 3rd March 2014, 11:27 AM

You have posted several fotos from what I understand a German book.
"Handbüchse mit verriegeltem Ringhaken", "Diese Hakenbüchsen ist aus Schmiedeeisen", "Stangenbüchse mit ursprunglichem Schaft". Would be interesting to know the Title of this book or if they are several the titels.

Andi · 3rd March 2014, 09:01 PM

"Handbüchse mit verriegeltem Ringhaken" and "Diese Hakenbüchsen ist aus Schmiedeeisen" are from a series of articles: P. Sixl: Entwickelung und Gebrauch der Handfeuerwaffen. In: Verein für Historische Waffenkunde (Hrsg.): Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde. Vol. 1, 1897 and Vol. 2, 1898.

Andi · 20th September 2014, 02:28 PM

Here is our free reconstruction of the Tabor-gonne. It has a barrel length of 410 mm a bore of 270 mm and a calibre of 18 mm. The total length with wooden stock is 192 cm. It is officially tested for shooting salute with a powder load of 20 g blackpowder by German authorities. .... And it is very loud

Our next salute is for your health, Michl!

28th July 2009, 10:33 PM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Photos from museum of Tabor. Czechia - Attached Images

29th July 2009, 12:41 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Spiridonov, Actually, the first photo was taken at the Koninklijk Museum van het Leger en de Krijgsgeschiedenis, Brussels. The three wrought iron tiller stock haquebuts/stick guns range among the earliest of their kind and were made in ca. 1430-50. The second photo shows two Czech 'Hussite pipes', short round wrought iron socket guns of ca. 1430, the stick stocks are replacements. The barrels are about 40 cm long, with relatively small bores of ca. 16 mm. Note the characteristically small touch hole. The bottom photo depicts a cast copper alloy haquebut barrel made at Nuremberg, about the earliest of its kind as the staging and the early form of the hook placed nearby the muzzle denote: ca. 1450-60. Length 73,8 cm, cal. 19 mm. The tiller stock is missing from the unusually narrow socket. On first sight one tends to believe that a small portion of the stick stock has survived but the more detailed photos in one of the following posts clearly show that this not the case. Of course, this heavy 'brass' or 'bronze' piece was not a handgun but was counted among light artillery. I attach better quality scans of the Czech guns. Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 29th July 2009 at 03:23 PM.

29th July 2009, 02:51 PM	#5
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	I had remember that i had seen that barrel at german book of my friend. Its seems to be with cover. Is the 73,8 cm total lengh or barrel channal length? Attached Images

29th July 2009, 03:19 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	You are right, Spiridonov, I attach two detailed pictures which I took of that gun when it was on display at the Military Museum in Prague in 1995; you can see that the rectanguar pan around the touch hole on the top flat is a later repair, a working addition of ca. 1500, the once swiveling cover is missing. The length of 73.8 cm must be the total length as the length of the bore is hardly ever measured. The other barrel seen above the bronze gun seems to be somewhat earlier at first sight, ca. 1440-50, but the touch hole is already on the right side - maybe this, too, was a later working alteration and the original touch hole on the top side was nailed and shut as has been the case with many barrels. This is mere speculation, though. Best, Michael Attached Images

30th July 2009, 06:11 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Very good question indeed, Spiridonov! Ramrods of Gothic and Renaissance artillery pieces, such as haquebuts/wallguns, were not an integral part of the stock and barrel, as was the case with handguns/arquebuses. To fully understand this answer one should bear in mind that such relatively heavy pieces were mounted on special carriages for field use which were often equipped with more than one haquebut. These carriages also held all the accouterments necessary for loading and cleaning the guns, including ramrods, readily measured and packed loads etc. I attach some watercolors from the Landshuter Zeughausinventar, the armory inventory, set up by Ulrich Bessnitzer in 1485 (Landshut is a medieval city in Lower Bavaria mostly known for their armorers) depicting 'brass' or 'bronze' haquebut barrrels on their carriages together with all the loading implements which were stored in special painted wooden chests (Zeuglade, Zeug meaning weapons and Lade meaning chest). The text to the first illustration states that 'Sechs Streitwagen zu Hagkenpuchsn', six war carriages for haquebuts, were kept in the Landshut armory in 1485! The last illustration shows 'Hultzein Ladung', wooden containers for measured barrel loads of powder - the predecessors of bandoliers! Best, Michael Attached Images

29th July 2009, 02:18 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, Our posts have crossed each other. You may have read by now that the bronze barrel on the bottom photo was made as early as ca. 1450-60. Best, Michael

30th July 2009, 02:02 PM	#9
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Yes, you are right. I see that

30th July 2009, 02:10 PM	#10
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Where was stored a ramrod using the weapon of this kind? It could be in the barrel channel on a march but during time when the barrel has been charged it it was impossible.

30th July 2009, 06:36 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, Now back to your question about ramrods of portable handguns/arquebuses such as the small Hussite barrel of ca. 1430 which originally had a tiller stock: a stick stock usually had no provision for a ramrod and the latter had to be carried separately. As we see on the Polish gun of ca. 1500 though, this problem was sometimes solved by drilling the tiller/stick stock out and storing the ramrod there (last picture). Other clever solutions were mounting the ramrod on the left side of the forestock when a hook made a ramrod chanel impossible below the barrel, or make the hook with a loop for the rod to pass thru. Samples attached. Best, Michael Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 10:06 PM	#13
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Hollow, Michael I have some questions about this barrel: 1. What is the calibre of this gun? 2. I saw some brands on this weapon. It would be desirable to consider them more in detail if it is possible 3. How does the barrel connected with stock? 4. Was the barrel painted or not? 5. What is the strange metall tip at the ramrod? 6. was the stock been impregnated by something or not? For example, linen oil 7. How does it dated? With the best regards, Alexander!

11th August 2009, 07:00 PM	#14
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	can anybody aswear my questions?

12th August 2009, 02:11 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexander, As to your questions about the early Pilsen handgun: 1. I do not know the caliber. 2. The marks on the stocks are no doubt owner's or arsenal markings. I will try and zoom them from the 100 year old photograph. 3. The barrel and stock seem to be connected only by means of the hook. 4. I don't know. 5. The iron finial of the ramrod is a scourer meant for cleaning the barrel walls. 6. I don't know. 7. I date the piece ca. 1430, the barrel may be as early as the late 14th century. Best, Michael

12th August 2009, 03:42 PM	#16
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A zoom of the mark on the left side of the butt; it seems to be a simple arsenal or housemark. Michael Attached Images

12th August 2009, 06:10 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexander, I did some research for you and found the data of that early Prague handgun/arquebus in an 1898 copy of the Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde: The overall length of the gun is 113 cm, the barrel length 29.5 cm, the bore is 27 cm long and the caliber is 33 mm, the weight is 7.5 kg. Unfortunately no information is provided on the color and finishing of the stock. As I said I believe that the barrel is the oldest part of the gun, of. ca. 1390-1400 - hark, Fernando! - and the hook and stock are working additions of ca. 1430. Best, Michael

12th August 2009, 08:28 PM	#18
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	THank you! What do you think about bossibility of using this weapon at 1470 year? For axample Mosi gever was using about 60 years

13th August 2009, 02:59 PM	#19
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sure it is possible that that gun was in use up to the 1470's. Best, Michael

3rd March 2014, 11:27 AM	#20
SVEN Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1	Matchlock You have posted several fotos from what I understand a German book. "Handbüchse mit verriegeltem Ringhaken", "Diese Hakenbüchsen ist aus Schmiedeeisen", "Stangenbüchse mit ursprunglichem Schaft". Would be interesting to know the Title of this book or if they are several the titels.

3rd March 2014, 09:01 PM	#21
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	"Handbüchse mit verriegeltem Ringhaken" and "Diese Hakenbüchsen ist aus Schmiedeeisen" are from a series of articles: P. Sixl: Entwickelung und Gebrauch der Handfeuerwaffen. In: Verein für Historische Waffenkunde (Hrsg.): Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde. Vol. 1, 1897 and Vol. 2, 1898.

20th September 2014, 02:28 PM	#22
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Here is our free reconstruction of the Tabor-gonne. It has a barrel length of 410 mm a bore of 270 mm and a calibre of 18 mm. The total length with wooden stock is 192 cm. It is officially tested for shooting salute with a powder load of 20 g blackpowder by German authorities. .... And it is very loud Our next salute is for your health, Michl! Attached Images Last edited by Andi; 20th September 2014 at 02:45 PM.