Chinese Sword

[Iliad]

Hi guys (and guyesses), Jim wants pics of items from my collection, so here is a Chinese sword which I think dates from about the time of the Boxer rebellion. All comments gratefully accepted.
Out of idle curiosity, does the Forum have any female members of the opposite sex? Or are we all male?
Brian

[Gavin Nugent]

Great sword Brian and very well kept.

Brian, a very nice clean example and worthy of any collection.

I think your dating would be correct; some where between 1880-1920 would be a fair guess.

Known as a Manchu Dao/Manchurian Sabre, yours and the ones I present below for comparison all exhibit the downward curving grip with horse hoof pommel and all with "Ox Tail" style blades.

As I have expressed in the past, I would love to have it in my collection as a comparison piece. Should you ever wish to export it to Australia, let me know, we take in a lot of Kiwis here :-) It would receive a warm welcome and be surrounded by like minded and styled individuals in my weapons rack.

All the best and thanks for presenting this Brian.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Out of idle curiosity, does the Forum have any female members of the opposite sex?

hmmm...wouldn't a "female of the opposite sex" actually be a guy.
In a word though, i think the answer is yes, so watch your language gents.

[Iliad]

Apologies David, my sense of humour takes a little time to get used to. I shall from now on be very dour and humourless. Not even a smile.
Brian

[Iliad]

Thanks Gav, I bought it very cheaply from someone who didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was either, so I didn't take advantage of him. I buy lots of edged weapons without knowing what they are, sort of like the apocryphal woman who bets on racehorses because she likes the jockey's colours! Mostly I come out ok, except for the time I bought Moroccan Saif's!!
Cheers, Brian

[josh stout]

What makes this a "Manchurian dao"? I can see the resemblance between the examples, but I had not seen that designation before. They are interesting in their similarities, given that most oxtails do not have scabbards and tend to be somewhat varied in appearance given their use outside the regular military. Was there a particular Manchu militia group that used them, or is this more of a collectors designation regarding a recognizable type?

They all look like somewhat late examples. The scabbards made from leather wrapped with wire all look post 1900 to me, and the technique certainly continues into the Republican period. I find such nice examples difficult to date sometimes because i am used to very obvious signs of age, but my guess for a date would be 1900 through the mid thirties.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by josh stout

What makes this a "Manchurian dao"? I can see the resemblance between the examples, but I had not seen that designation before. They are interesting in their similarities, given that most oxtails do not have scabbards and tend to be somewhat varied in appearance given their use outside the regular military. Was there a particular Manchu militia group that used them, or is this more of a collectors designation regarding a recognizable type?

They all look like somewhat late examples. The scabbards made from leather wrapped with wire all look post 1900 to me, and the technique certainly continues into the Republican period. I find such nice examples difficult to date sometimes because i am used to very obvious signs of age, but my guess for a date would be 1900 through the mid thirties.
Josh

G'day Josh and well noted.

These examples as I understand it were found up to a couple of decades prior to 1900 and certainly were found up to 1930 too. I tend to think the dao found with the brass cup guards were more towards the 1930's.
If you can refer to an old Scott Rodell catalogue, inventory number 717, you will see these referred to as Manchu Dao's. As for particular units, I cannot comment.
As a note, the single one I presented seems to be covered in a very fine fish skin.

Gav

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Iliad, thank you for sharing! Do you have measures and weight of this piece? Without photos from the back of the blade looks like a machete-style blade. I mean, a plain laminated blade of the same thickness along the whole blade. Doest it has a distal taper? How thick is at the base on the back side? I hope not being troublesome.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Iliad]

Hi Gonzalo, thanks so much for your comments. Overall length 36 and half inches (93 cm); width of back edge at the handguard is 4 mm, tapers to 1 mm at the tip.I have no way of weighing the sword and don't know what a distal is!!
You guys are so knowledgeable it astounds me!
Brian

[Emanuel]

Hello Brian, nice sword. I've been looking for some decent examples of Chinese swords, but it seems quite hard to tell the copies from the older ones.

You gave the distal taper (4mm to 1mm). This indicates that the blade thickness tapers towards the tip. Generally a good sign...copies and fakes don't bother with the distal taper as it's much easier to cut out or stamp out a sword shape out of a sheet of metal of uniform thickness.

Cheers!
Emanuel

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi Gonzalo, thanks so much for your comments. Overall length 36 and half inches (93 cm); width of back edge at the handguard is 4 mm, tapers to 1 mm at the tip.I have no way of weighing the sword and don't know what a distal is!!
You guys are so knowledgeable it astounds me!
Brian

Brian, thank you very much for your information! As Manolo said, you already gave me the distal taper. Technical terms are not really a big deal, and they are very easily learnt if you are interested in the geometry of the blade.
My regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by josh stout

What makes this a "Manchurian dao"? I can see the resemblance between the examples, but I had not seen that designation before. They are interesting in their similarities, given that most oxtails do not have scabbards and tend to be somewhat varied in appearance given their use outside the regular military. Was there a particular Manchu militia group that used them, or is this more of a collectors designation regarding a recognizable type?

They all look like somewhat late examples. The scabbards made from leather wrapped with wire all look post 1900 to me, and the technique certainly continues into the Republican period. I find such nice examples difficult to date sometimes because i am used to very obvious signs of age, but my guess for a date would be 1900 through the mid thirties.
Josh

I would agree with the post 1900 date for wire wrap scabbards, it does seem that Chinese swords just as many ethnographic edged weapon forms ,are often remounted and replacement scabbards added. Many of the late Ming blades were remounted in the 19th century in Qing mounts.

The 'Manchurian' designation is indeed confusing, and indeed does appear in the 'Seven Stars' catalog as Gavin has noted, actually in two catalogs on the same sabre. It is interesting that the 'Manchu Dao' designator is used only on this example which is the same in form as standard oxtail sabres, the Nui Wei Dao, which is the designation on these same sabres through all other issues of these catalogs I am aware of.

The text also typically emphasizes that ,
"...the niu wei dao is unique in the history of Chinese sabre designs. Unlike all preceding forms of single edged swords in Chinas steel age history, the nui wei dao is the only type not to have been used as a standard weapon of Imperial Troops. In fact it appears the only sabre which seems to have been developed solely for civilian use".
(Item #1914, Catalog 19, 1999, Seven Stars)

Other entries in these catalogs for nui wei dao, or oxtails, note the civilian use of these, and that they were carried by rebels, martial artists and common men in the last years of the Qing (Manchu) dynasty. There are references to the Boxers (Righteous Fists of Harmony) who supported the Dowager Empress Cixi during the maelstrom of rebellion and chaos taking place 1898-1901.
The Daoist martial art known as Ba Gwa Zhang (Eight Trigrams Palm) was little known until brought to Beijing in the 19th century by Dung Halchuant, and the 'oxtail' with huge blade was favored in 'Ba Gwa' style.
(ref: Seven Stars Cat. 14 1997, #1430).
Perhaps these set the pace for the popularity of these huge bladed sabres in the martial artist and civilian sector.

It does seem possible that despite civilian designation, these may have been also used by the irregular units or militia attached to the Qing military. The references specify these were not used by 'Imperial' troops, which of course excludes these type units I would think.

Cat. 15 (1997) notes that Nui Wei Dao of high quality were made at the famed Longquan in Zheijiang Province (the location of the original seven wells arranged in formation of the seven stars of the bear constellation), and these oxtails were "...prized by martial artists and military men across China".
This note suggests that some sort of use may have existed, but most likely in the irregular units noted.

My question has been, why would the Manchu designation and style have been used by martial artists, who seem to me have typically been associated with the well known secret societies in China who despised the Manchu of the Qing dynasty. Perhaps the term derived from these sabres used by militia type forces for the Qing, and became favored with thier powerful blades easy to use by relatively untrained civilians, and remarkably deadly in the hands of martial artists.

Just some thoughts on the term and use of these fascinating swords,

All the best,
Jim

[josh stout]

I think niuweidao is the general term for the many broad bladed, sabers with a raised yelman, while "manchu dao" may be more of a collectors term. Manchu dao are certainly a recognizable subset of the oxtail style, and the scabbards are similar to Qing regulation scabbards for the willow leaf swords of the regular army. It is not wild speculation to suppose that there were regular militia under Manchu control that used these swords. Nevertheless, until a militia regulation manual terns up, I will put this term with other collector’s terms for recognizable types, such as the Qijiadao, that may have some historical basis, but are unsubstantiated.

Just for reference, here are some niuweidao that are not of the "Manchu dao" type, mixed with some other civilian dao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...i/DSC_1053.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation357.jpg

Josh

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

While the topic is still current, I thought I'd post these pix (sorry for the poor quality). Is this the genuine article, or merely a wall hanger?

Thank you.

[josh stout]

As I have said many times, it is difficult for me to date late pieces in good condition. Nevertheless, because no one else has tried, I will say these are probably late Republican. Many such blades copy earlier things, and may have artificial patination to make them look older. Look for signs of real age, including a chipping or wearing away of any artificial patina.

I see late examples to still be "real" if they have a good steel blade. The pattern welded ones are obviously nice, but some mono-steel ones were also made with quality.
Josh

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

Thanks Josh!

Best,