A 17th century cutlass

M ELEY · 26th March 2019, 08:00 PM

Here we have a 17th century (c.1660-90) hanger/cutlass, possibly Dutch, dating to around the time of the Buccaneers. See this great article posted by Jasper and note the cutlass listed from Neumann's guide very similar to mine-

http://benersonlittle.blog/2016/12/3...-what-we-know/

M ELEY · 26th March 2019, 08:19 PM

The hilt on this cutlass is open with no shells or attached plates (think Walloon types) with a bow for the knuckles and counter bow for the back of the hand. A thumb ring helps balance the swing of the piece. Copper wire wrapped grip, spherical pommel with knuckle bow latched into it. The (ahem

) two balled bow/bar are of the early pattern, distinct and spaced. The blade nicely balanced with false back edge and decorated with a Roman head in profile with foliage.

M ELEY · 26th March 2019, 08:23 PM

Blade measures 28.5"

Any opinions as to origin? Dutch? Germanic? East European? Does the Roman head design give anyone a clue? Thanks in advance-

M ELEY · 26th March 2019, 08:35 PM

A close-up...

Wait a minute! I know who it is!! A famous pirate!

MForde · 28th March 2019, 04:51 PM

That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 05:09 PM

Hi Mark
I have been kinda waiting to see if Jasper would respond as I think this sabre is likely from his neck of the woods, that is it is probably Dutch or German and seems of course 18th century. To me the thumb ring signals those origins as that feature was much favored by them.
The hilt itself is in the form with the cross over hand guard bar which seems widely used in these regions on arming swords and hangers out of the 'walloon' groups.

It seems that of course, these kinds of swords would easily find their way into maritime situations as the Low Countries were prime suppliers of weaponry internationally. They were the export ports for blades from Solingen, as well as swords which were assembled in those regions. With the extensive trade networks and shipping these kinds of swords were likely among goods captured by privateers and pirates.

The blade character itself and especially the 'Roman' figure (Caesar ?) in inscribed motif seems of the neoclassic themes of the 18th century which appeared on material culture as well as blades.

I think perhaps the Neumann book might have similar examples (still trying to find and excavate my copy here in the bookmobile!).

While we cannot be sure if this is a maritime context weapon, the term cutlass is of course extremely loosely used in many cases of description implying that situation. It is like the dreaded 'name game' in ethnographic arms where terms for sword types are often completely confusing in studying them.

In any case, fascinating 18th century sword (always loved the thumb rings) which looks like it has great stories to tell us!

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MForde

That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

Absolutely!!!! and especially GOOD hands in the case of Cap'n Mark!!! whose writing is 'living history'

!

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 06:13 PM

OK Mark, finally found Neumann (1973) and on p,158 (#289.S) there is a horsemans sabre with remarkably similar hilt, which is classified as 'European'. There was so much diffusion and cross influence in the Continent with these hilt styles that while vague, it is the only prudent term without specific provenance.
The blade on this on is similar in fullering etc. and the sword is placed c. 1700-30, and of about 33" (cavalry length). Also, the bilobate guards of the 'walloon' type swords remain intact.

Neumann notes that these bilobate 'shell' guards were carried well into the 18th c. and refers to other similar types in 33.s to 35..
In checking this, 34.S is significant as the other two with all three examples being German and latter 17th into early 18th.

Here I note that 34.S. is the closest match to this hilt, and has the thumb ring and well as the dual lobed feature in the hilt branches, the sharply down turned quillon, and pommel with inserted branches.

With this I would suggest this is a German hanger of c. 1700-30 with the guard open ring rather than bilobate shells. The curiously themed engraving on the blade remains a mystery, and I think we might find more in some of the blade motifs in French context in 18th c.

M ELEY · 29th March 2019, 06:38 AM

Hello Jim,old friend,and thanks for responding. I also suspected that my dating to the earlier period might be incorrect, but it is hard to tell with this pattern, as the changes over time were subtle. For instance, many of the earlier mortuary hilts and early Walloons had screws in the pommel securing the knuckle bow and many experts point out that later swords got rid of the screw and just had the bow poking through a hole in the pommel. Neumann shows the transition in several of his listed swords. Leslie Southwick, however, did show several early transitional swords without the pommel screw, just the knuckle bow directly piercing the pommel on weapons dating to the 1660's, 70's, 80's. Likewise, I saw a very similar pommel shape to mine on a piece dated ca. 1690. In truth I was hoping for the earlier date, as it fit into the Brethren of the Coast period-

, but the facts don't lie.(unless Jasper comes in with a different opinion!)

In any case, a time period of 1700-30 still leaves it within the boundaries of the Pirate Golden Age. As you pointed out, the German sword makers were in high demand and their product swept all across Europe. The fact that the general pattern of this sword made it popular in the Low Countries is fine by me. The Dutch, Danes and Swedes were all in the Caribbean by this time (Sweden had their own pirate/privateer flotilla guarding their coast from invasion).Likewise, if we are to attribute this sword to a French association, the French were likewise heavily involved in piracy in the West Indies and other regions at this time frame.

midelburgo · 29th March 2019, 12:38 PM

I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache!

Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache.

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2019, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache!

Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache.

EXCELLENT!!!

Good catch Midelburgo, with that acanthus wreath on the head I was associating with the neo ckassic thing later in the 18thc especially in France....but this solidly puts the notion further back and as you well note in the Germanic context. .....the thumb ring factor in place (Germany).

M ELEY · 30th March 2019, 06:54 AM

Wow! That is a match in my book! Even the way his mustache is wedge-shaped seems to match the profile on the blade. Based on Jim's succinct time frame and country of origin, it nicely works out! Thank you Midelburgo and Cap'n Jim for all your help pinning this one down! I'm happy that it still fits the bill for a "Golden Age" piece.
Mark

M ELEY · 31st March 2019, 02:05 AM

Here's coins with Emperor Leopold I. Note his large hawkish nose and similar mustache. I think we have our proof!

kronckew · 31st March 2019, 08:40 AM

Has the Hapsburg Lip I see....

M ELEY · 31st March 2019, 09:38 AM

LOL, Wayne!

I didn't want to point that out but, yep, he has the lip. Surprised they didn't downplay this in his caricature.

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2019, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

LOL, Wayne!

I didn't want to point that out but, yep, he has the lip. Surprised they didn't downplay this in his caricature.

This is what is so totally exciting about investigating weapons, history literally coming to life as told by the weapon itself. You guys are true 'arms whisperers'!!! Brilliant!

Midelburgo thank you again for catching the Leopold thing.....the pivotal catch.

corrado26 · 31st March 2019, 06:15 PM

Sorry, but I cannot believe that the image on the blade should be the portrait of the Habsburg emperor Leopold I.
In this case the image should show as all the silver coins of his time with his portrait do, his massive Habsburg underlip. And if this should really be a portrait of the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire it lacks the heraldic Habsburg coat of arms and the heraldic eagle on the other side of the blade. Leopold has not been the last with a moustache, there are other war lords of the Thirty Years War with this feature as for instance Johann Adolph von Schwarzenberg whose physiognomy resembles very much the image on the blade as well. Ok, there is missing the wreath of laurels at the coin with the portrait of v.Schwarzenberg, but this might have no importance.
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2019, 10:01 PM

Interesting perspective Udo, but for me its pretty much about the laurel wreath which is what brought the attention to this figure on the blade in the first place.
True there are surely other possibilities of characters for the wreathed figure but the Leopold suggestion is most compelling and aligns with the particular Germanic features on the sword in entirety (the thumb ring and pommel and branch elements).
I still feel confident that the placement of this sword in the latter 17th is correct, and the Thirty Years war (1618-48) would be a bit early.

M ELEY · 1st April 2019, 04:10 PM

I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to comment on this piece. I understand that there are slight differences in the portraits of the monarchs, but I would always have described the marking as "attributed to..." or "believed to be..." Jim has acutely accessed the date and country of origin (Germany), so at the very least we know that Midelburgo was on the right track in identifying the fact that the portraiture is one of the Holy Roman Emperors of this time period. I don't think the eagle crest is necessary to prove or disprove this. That it is definitely Leopold might remain a contention, but it does fit the timeline of his rule (1670's-1705). If Udo is right and the monarch is from an earlier date, it would be more of a memorial to their past rule. In either case, I am just happy that it wasn't just a generic imprint of no one in particular for decorative purposes alone.

Hotspur · 2nd April 2019, 08:46 AM

German, Austrian, I'm not thinking Dutch for these curved feldegen type that differentiate from the hilts with shell guards. I recently adopted a large haudegen with similar guard branches but a much simpler thumb ring. The straight walloon/haudegen cavalry swords almost uniform and there is that Austrian castle wall showing a dozen or so of these hilts.

In seeking out information regarding screws or not. Time period and area not necessarily a key but more so in pommel types and blades affixed.

All my pictures need sizing

lets see here. A handful resized for now.
A long thread and my Wundes blade sword with full size Fagan images on page three at the end. I'll work on those.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795

GC

M ELEY · 2nd April 2019, 05:17 PM

Very nice sword, Glenn! I've never heard the term 'haudegen' before. I also wasn't sure about the screw to the pommel being a decider of dating, as I saw mid-17th c. examples with knuckle bows directly hooked into the pommel without them. Your example has a very similar, if not exact, pommel to mine. How would you date yours? I understand that the period for these was broad and blade style were also contributors, but I am curious...

corrado26 · 2nd April 2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I've never heard the term 'haudegen' before. .

Normally the German term "Haudegen" stands for a battle experienced old fighter, in English maybe an old war horse. The normal expression for the sword shown is "Felddegen".
corrado26

kronckew · 2nd April 2019, 05:31 PM

Hotspur - Very Pappenheimerish! Me like. Me want. Me can't afford.

Hotspur · 2nd April 2019, 08:31 PM

Mine has a Wundes marked blade and likely the second half of the 17th century. The adoption was to help reign in spending after clearing some debt. I am currently paying off yet another sword but it has been tough not to slide into another hole.

The blade decorative art of the subject cutlass might be the best lead as to origin. I don't really have a clue but to me it seems more central European than the west lowlands of the channel. Maybe Baltic/Scandic but I just don't know.

Cheers
GC

M ELEY · 2nd April 2019, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Mine has a Wundes marked blade and likely the second half of the 17th century. The adoption was to help reign in spending after clearing some debt. I am currently paying off yet another sword but it has been tough not to slide into another hole.

The blade decorative art of the subject cutlass might be the best lead as to origin. I don't really have a clue but to me it seems more central European than the west lowlands of the channel. Maybe Baltic/Scandic but I just don't know.

Cheers
GC

Oh yes! Always in debt over my collecting as well. I'm really starting to love these type swords. Saw one at an antique mall in Gettysburg many years ago, but just couldn't swing the price.

I guess another factor, already mentioned but worth repeating, is that these swords might have been constructed in one country (Germany or Austria), but made for elsewhere, as they were making so many blades back then. My particular sword isn't of the classic Walloon type, with its lack of side plates and possessing a curved blade. It could have been meant for export to any of the Low Countries (Sweden, Netherlands, etc). After all, there were swords of this type used by the Danes, Dutch and even a French variation! It definitely has the Germanic features, though.

26th March 2019, 08:00 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A 17th century cutlass Here we have a 17th century (c.1660-90) hanger/cutlass, possibly Dutch, dating to around the time of the Buccaneers. See this great article posted by Jasper and note the cutlass listed from Neumann's guide very similar to mine- http://benersonlittle.blog/2016/12/3...-what-we-know/ Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 26th March 2019 at 10:41 PM.

26th March 2019, 08:23 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	More pics... Blade measures 28.5" Any opinions as to origin? Dutch? Germanic? East European? Does the Roman head design give anyone a clue? Thanks in advance- Attached Images

26th March 2019, 08:35 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Details of profile head A close-up... Wait a minute! I know who it is!! A famous pirate! Attached Images

29th March 2019, 12:38 PM	#10
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	I think the portrait is a generic Holy Roman (Germanic), Emperor. He has a mustache! Possibly Leopold I (d1705) although just kept as a decorative motif. He was the last one sporting a mustache. Attached Images

31st March 2019, 02:05 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Proof? Here's coins with Emperor Leopold I. Note his large hawkish nose and similar mustache. I think we have our proof! Attached Images

26th March 2019, 08:19 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Pics to follow The hilt on this cutlass is open with no shells or attached plates (think Walloon types) with a bow for the knuckles and counter bow for the back of the hand. A thumb ring helps balance the swing of the piece. Copper wire wrapped grip, spherical pommel with knuckle bow latched into it. The (ahem ) two balled bow/bar are of the early pattern, distinct and spaced. The blade nicely balanced with false back edge and decorated with a Roman head in profile with foliage. Attached Images

28th March 2019, 04:51 PM	#5
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	That's fantastic. So much history in the hand!

28th March 2019, 05:09 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark I have been kinda waiting to see if Jasper would respond as I think this sabre is likely from his neck of the woods, that is it is probably Dutch or German and seems of course 18th century. To me the thumb ring signals those origins as that feature was much favored by them. The hilt itself is in the form with the cross over hand guard bar which seems widely used in these regions on arming swords and hangers out of the 'walloon' groups. It seems that of course, these kinds of swords would easily find their way into maritime situations as the Low Countries were prime suppliers of weaponry internationally. They were the export ports for blades from Solingen, as well as swords which were assembled in those regions. With the extensive trade networks and shipping these kinds of swords were likely among goods captured by privateers and pirates. The blade character itself and especially the 'Roman' figure (Caesar ?) in inscribed motif seems of the neoclassic themes of the 18th century which appeared on material culture as well as blades. I think perhaps the Neumann book might have similar examples (still trying to find and excavate my copy here in the bookmobile!). While we cannot be sure if this is a maritime context weapon, the term cutlass is of course extremely loosely used in many cases of description implying that situation. It is like the dreaded 'name game' in ethnographic arms where terms for sword types are often completely confusing in studying them. In any case, fascinating 18th century sword (always loved the thumb rings) which looks like it has great stories to tell us!

28th March 2019, 06:13 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	OK Mark, finally found Neumann (1973) and on p,158 (#289.S) there is a horsemans sabre with remarkably similar hilt, which is classified as 'European'. There was so much diffusion and cross influence in the Continent with these hilt styles that while vague, it is the only prudent term without specific provenance. The blade on this on is similar in fullering etc. and the sword is placed c. 1700-30, and of about 33" (cavalry length). Also, the bilobate guards of the 'walloon' type swords remain intact. Neumann notes that these bilobate 'shell' guards were carried well into the 18th c. and refers to other similar types in 33.s to 35.. In checking this, 34.S is significant as the other two with all three examples being German and latter 17th into early 18th. Here I note that 34.S. is the closest match to this hilt, and has the thumb ring and well as the dual lobed feature in the hilt branches, the sharply down turned quillon, and pommel with inserted branches. With this I would suggest this is a German hanger of c. 1700-30 with the guard open ring rather than bilobate shells. The curiously themed engraving on the blade remains a mystery, and I think we might find more in some of the blade motifs in French context in 18th c.

29th March 2019, 06:38 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim,old friend,and thanks for responding. I also suspected that my dating to the earlier period might be incorrect, but it is hard to tell with this pattern, as the changes over time were subtle. For instance, many of the earlier mortuary hilts and early Walloons had screws in the pommel securing the knuckle bow and many experts point out that later swords got rid of the screw and just had the bow poking through a hole in the pommel. Neumann shows the transition in several of his listed swords. Leslie Southwick, however, did show several early transitional swords without the pommel screw, just the knuckle bow directly piercing the pommel on weapons dating to the 1660's, 70's, 80's. Likewise, I saw a very similar pommel shape to mine on a piece dated ca. 1690. In truth I was hoping for the earlier date, as it fit into the Brethren of the Coast period- , but the facts don't lie.(unless Jasper comes in with a different opinion!) In any case, a time period of 1700-30 still leaves it within the boundaries of the Pirate Golden Age. As you pointed out, the German sword makers were in high demand and their product swept all across Europe. The fact that the general pattern of this sword made it popular in the Low Countries is fine by me. The Dutch, Danes and Swedes were all in the Caribbean by this time (Sweden had their own pirate/privateer flotilla guarding their coast from invasion).Likewise, if we are to attribute this sword to a French association, the French were likewise heavily involved in piracy in the West Indies and other regions at this time frame.

30th March 2019, 06:54 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Wow! That is a match in my book! Even the way his mustache is wedge-shaped seems to match the profile on the blade. Based on Jim's succinct time frame and country of origin, it nicely works out! Thank you Midelburgo and Cap'n Jim for all your help pinning this one down! I'm happy that it still fits the bill for a "Golden Age" piece. Mark

31st March 2019, 08:40 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Has the Hapsburg Lip I see....

31st March 2019, 09:38 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	LOL, Wayne! I didn't want to point that out but, yep, he has the lip. Surprised they didn't downplay this in his caricature.

31st March 2019, 06:15 PM	#17
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Sorry, but I cannot believe that the image on the blade should be the portrait of the Habsburg emperor Leopold I. In this case the image should show as all the silver coins of his time with his portrait do, his massive Habsburg underlip. And if this should really be a portrait of the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire it lacks the heraldic Habsburg coat of arms and the heraldic eagle on the other side of the blade. Leopold has not been the last with a moustache, there are other war lords of the Thirty Years War with this feature as for instance Johann Adolph von Schwarzenberg whose physiognomy resembles very much the image on the blade as well. Ok, there is missing the wreath of laurels at the coin with the portrait of v.Schwarzenberg, but this might have no importance. corrado26 Attached Images

31st March 2019, 10:01 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Interesting perspective Udo, but for me its pretty much about the laurel wreath which is what brought the attention to this figure on the blade in the first place. True there are surely other possibilities of characters for the wreathed figure but the Leopold suggestion is most compelling and aligns with the particular Germanic features on the sword in entirety (the thumb ring and pommel and branch elements). I still feel confident that the placement of this sword in the latter 17th is correct, and the Thirty Years war (1618-48) would be a bit early.

1st April 2019, 04:10 PM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to comment on this piece. I understand that there are slight differences in the portraits of the monarchs, but I would always have described the marking as "attributed to..." or "believed to be..." Jim has acutely accessed the date and country of origin (Germany), so at the very least we know that Midelburgo was on the right track in identifying the fact that the portraiture is one of the Holy Roman Emperors of this time period. I don't think the eagle crest is necessary to prove or disprove this. That it is definitely Leopold might remain a contention, but it does fit the timeline of his rule (1670's-1705). If Udo is right and the monarch is from an earlier date, it would be more of a memorial to their past rule. In either case, I am just happy that it wasn't just a generic imprint of no one in particular for decorative purposes alone.

2nd April 2019, 08:46 AM	#20
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	German, Austrian, I'm not thinking Dutch for these curved feldegen type that differentiate from the hilts with shell guards. I recently adopted a large haudegen with similar guard branches but a much simpler thumb ring. The straight walloon/haudegen cavalry swords almost uniform and there is that Austrian castle wall showing a dozen or so of these hilts. In seeking out information regarding screws or not. Time period and area not necessarily a key but more so in pommel types and blades affixed. All my pictures need sizing lets see here. A handful resized for now. A long thread and my Wundes blade sword with full size Fagan images on page three at the end. I'll work on those. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795 GC Attached Images

2nd April 2019, 05:17 PM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Very nice sword, Glenn! I've never heard the term 'haudegen' before. I also wasn't sure about the screw to the pommel being a decider of dating, as I saw mid-17th c. examples with knuckle bows directly hooked into the pommel without them. Your example has a very similar, if not exact, pommel to mine. How would you date yours? I understand that the period for these was broad and blade style were also contributors, but I am curious...

2nd April 2019, 05:31 PM	#23
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Hotspur - Very Pappenheimerish! Me like. Me want. Me can't afford.

2nd April 2019, 08:31 PM	#24
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Mine has a Wundes marked blade and likely the second half of the 17th century. The adoption was to help reign in spending after clearing some debt. I am currently paying off yet another sword but it has been tough not to slide into another hole. The blade decorative art of the subject cutlass might be the best lead as to origin. I don't really have a clue but to me it seems more central European than the west lowlands of the channel. Maybe Baltic/Scandic but I just don't know. Cheers GC