A Cirebon coposition keris

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 06:00 PM

Hello All,
some years ago I bought in Indonesia all this parts in one year. A golden Cirebon handle, a nicely carved Cirebon warangka, a pendok buton from Yogya and a blade which become thin by many ritual cleanings. Also the pamor is gone. The gandhik Widadari (?) is covered with gold, fractional missing alike the kinatah emas on the ganja.
I know that the pendok is not adequate but until now I don't found a better one.
I would like to read your opinons of this keris, thank's in advance.

Henk · 5th February 2009, 10:15 PM

The wrongko is from Madura. The ukiran has more the look of an East Javanese or Maduran Raksasa. Imho this keris originated more from East Java or Madura than Cirebon.

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The wrongko is from Madura. The ukiran has more the look of an East Javanese or Maduran Raksasa. Imho this keris originated more from East Java or Madura than Cirebon.

Dear Henk,
thank's for reply. Isn't the wrongko/warangka not the same style like the keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7839
I also thought long time that it is a Madura wrongko.
Regards,
Detlef

Henk · 5th February 2009, 11:01 PM

Dear Detlef,

I will eat my hat if that wrongko isn't from Madura. Certainly not Cirebon. The style is ladrang and most ladrang wrongko's have that similar style and one has sometimes to look very careful to notice the differences between the regions.

In return I give you this link. Study, but above all, enjoy!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wrongko

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The wrongko is from Madura. The ukiran has more the look of an East Javanese or Maduran Raksasa. Imho this keris originated more from East Java or Madura than Cirebon.

Also in this thread Ganja show two keris with the same style of wrongko:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8295
I am a little bit confused now. Is it Madura or Cirebon style wrongko?
Detlef

danny1976 · 5th February 2009, 11:13 PM

hi Detlef,

nice piece! But... i also think the wranka is from madura a little more
fancy carving then what u see often on this wranka,s

and the hilt ...... could it be bali or lombok? it,s a wild ques..

danny

Henk · 5th February 2009, 11:14 PM

Detlef,

I understand your confusion, but look at the differences between the cirebon wrongko and the madura wrongko. Read the explanations in the link. Especially the parts of A.G. Maisey. Alan's contribution is of great help. I would advise you search for and read the posts Alan has written. You can learn a lot of it about the keris.

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Dear Detlef,

I will eat my hat if that wrongko isn't from Madura. Certainly not Cirebon. The style is ladrang and most ladrang wrongko's have that similar style and one has sometimes to look very careful to notice the differences between the regions.

In return I give you this link. Study, but above all, enjoy!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wrongko

Dear Henk,
I don't want that you have to eat your hat

. You are right, on the second page of the link Mr. Maisey show a wrongko very similar to mine. But so the handle have also Maduran style and goes with the wrongko?
Detlef

Sajen · 5th February 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Detlef,

I understand your confusion, but look at the differences between the cirebon wrongko and the madura wrongko. Read the explanations in the link. Especially the parts of A.G. Maisey. Alan's contribution is of great help. I would advise you search for and read the posts Alan has written. You can learn a lot of it about the keris.

Here I agree to 100% with you, he is a great classicist of keris. Thank's for the link, very intersting.
Detlef

ganjawulung · 6th February 2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The wrongko is from Madura.....

Yes, it looks Maduran warangka -- if we look at the carving on that part of warangka...
Below, for comparison -- I am posting for you, some Cirebonese warangkas originated from Kasepuhan, Cirebon. Two in the middle, with 'wadasan' carving, and one plain without pendok (left) and one 'iras' type warangka (one piece of trembalo wood)...

Many old Cirebonese warangkas, found without metal pendok. But some have specific Cirebonese pendok...

GANJAWULUNG

Sajen · 6th February 2009, 05:56 PM

Dear Ganja and Henk,
I am confident by your help. Because I have never before seen a warangka like this from Madura and the affinity from my one to Cirebon ladrang form I've thought it's a Cirebon one.
But what is with the handle and blade? Both adequate to the sheat?
Detlef

Sajen · 6th February 2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny1976

hi Detlef,

nice piece! But... i also think the wranka is from madura a little more
fancy carving then what u see often on this wranka,s

and the hilt ...... could it be bali or lombok? it,s a wild ques..

danny

Hi Danny,
that's the question. My guess is that it is Cirebon or like Henk write East Java/Madura. To be a Bali handle it seems to small.
Regards,
Detlef

David · 6th February 2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Danny,
that's the question. My guess is that it is Cirebon or like Henk write East Java/Madura. To be a Bali handle it seems to small.
Regards,
Detlef

Well, i don't think it is even a matter of size. Though most Bali keris tend to be larger there are still a few examples that are smaller in size. I think it is more a matter of style and this hilt doesn't look to be any Bali style that i know.

Henk · 6th February 2009, 08:30 PM

Detlef,

In my opinion the ukiran is matching very nice with the wrongko. I go for Madura or east Java. That is where your ukiran is from. The pendok is a Yogjakarta pendok. A Maduran pendok would be better to complete the piece.
The mendak is javanese and mostly found in Solo, but is used in more area's.
For the blade I think it is adequate to the sheath. We cann't see how the blade fits into the wrongko. Hard to judge from a picture but a maduran blade is mostly more sturdy. The javanese blades have more elegance.

Well, my conclusion is, and everybody may shoot on it: Keris Madura, gandar covered with Yogjakarta pendok.

Sajen · 7th February 2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't think it is even a matter of size. Though most Bali keris tend to be larger there are still a few examples that are smaller in size. I think it is more a matter of style and this hilt doesn't look to be any Bali style that i know.

Hello David,
thank's for your input. Of course you're right but my smallest hilt fom Bali is still a little bit moore high then this one. This golden hilt is a little bit moore then 7 cm in hight. And second I agree with you that I never have seen a Bali style hilt like this. But maybe I am wrong by this.
Detlef

Sajen · 7th February 2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Detlef,

In my opinion the ukiran is matching very nice with the wrongko. I go for Madura or east Java. That is where your ukiran is from. The pendok is a Yogjakarta pendok. A Maduran pendok would be better to complete the piece.
The mendak is javanese and mostly found in Solo, but is used in more area's.
For the blade I think it is adequate to the sheath. We cann't see how the blade fits into the wrongko. Hard to judge from a picture but a maduran blade is mostly more sturdy. The javanese blades have more elegance.

Well, my conclusion is, and everybody may shoot on it: Keris Madura, gandar covered with Yogjakarta pendok.

Henk,
thank's again for your help. Yes, the pendok is Yogja style. The problem is that this keris is relative small in size, 45 cm complete and 33 cm the blade without peksi and I don't found a matching pendok from good quality until now. The second problem is that the gandar is also very small. I hope to find one by time. here two pictures how the blade fits inside the sheat. Not perfect but still ok in my opinion.
Detlef

Henk · 7th February 2009, 09:15 PM

Detlef,

The keris fits reasonable in the wrongko. However the wrongko was not made for this keris. The ukiran has as David noticed not the style of a Balinese ukiran wich is rather specific.

It is hard to tell where this kerisblade is from. Due to its elegance I lean to Java, but it could be a maduran blade as well. It is very tricky to pin a blade as this one in an area from only a picture. But I still wish to stay at my earlier remark, Keris Madura.

Sajen · 7th February 2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Detlef,

The keris fits reasonable in the wrongko. However the wrongko was not made for this keris. The ukiran has as David noticed not the style of a Balinese ukiran wich is rather specific.

It is hard to tell where this kerisblade is from. Due to its elegance I lean to Java, but it could be a maduran blade as well. It is very tricky to pin a blade as this one in an area from only a picture. But I still wish to stay at my earlier remark, Keris Madura.

Henk,

thank's for your generous help. So all matching good except the pendok. Like I write in up from this thread I bought all parts of this keris separately and have been lucky that all falls to place. Wrongko and pendok I get in Surabaya and blade/hilt on Bali.

Detlef

5th February 2009, 06:00 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	A Cirebon coposition keris Hello All, some years ago I bought in Indonesia all this parts in one year. A golden Cirebon handle, a nicely carved Cirebon warangka, a pendok buton from Yogya and a blade which become thin by many ritual cleanings. Also the pamor is gone. The gandhik Widadari (?) is covered with gold, fractional missing alike the kinatah emas on the ganja. I know that the pendok is not adequate but until now I don't found a better one. I would like to read your opinons of this keris, thank's in advance. Attached Images

5th February 2009, 10:15 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The wrongko is from Madura. The ukiran has more the look of an East Javanese or Maduran Raksasa. Imho this keris originated more from East Java or Madura than Cirebon.

5th February 2009, 11:01 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Dear Detlef, I will eat my hat if that wrongko isn't from Madura. Certainly not Cirebon. The style is ladrang and most ladrang wrongko's have that similar style and one has sometimes to look very careful to notice the differences between the regions. In return I give you this link. Study, but above all, enjoy!! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wrongko

5th February 2009, 11:13 PM	#6
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	hi Detlef, nice piece! But... i also think the wranka is from madura a little more fancy carving then what u see often on this wranka,s and the hilt ...... could it be bali or lombok? it,s a wild ques.. danny

5th February 2009, 11:14 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef, I understand your confusion, but look at the differences between the cirebon wrongko and the madura wrongko. Read the explanations in the link. Especially the parts of A.G. Maisey. Alan's contribution is of great help. I would advise you search for and read the posts Alan has written. You can learn a lot of it about the keris.

6th February 2009, 05:56 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Dear Ganja and Henk, I am confident by your help. Because I have never before seen a warangka like this from Madura and the affinity from my one to Cirebon ladrang form I've thought it's a Cirebon one. But what is with the handle and blade? Both adequate to the sheat? Detlef

6th February 2009, 08:30 PM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef, In my opinion the ukiran is matching very nice with the wrongko. I go for Madura or east Java. That is where your ukiran is from. The pendok is a Yogjakarta pendok. A Maduran pendok would be better to complete the piece. The mendak is javanese and mostly found in Solo, but is used in more area's. For the blade I think it is adequate to the sheath. We cann't see how the blade fits into the wrongko. Hard to judge from a picture but a maduran blade is mostly more sturdy. The javanese blades have more elegance. Well, my conclusion is, and everybody may shoot on it: Keris Madura, gandar covered with Yogjakarta pendok.

7th February 2009, 09:15 PM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef, The keris fits reasonable in the wrongko. However the wrongko was not made for this keris. The ukiran has as David noticed not the style of a Balinese ukiran wich is rather specific. It is hard to tell where this kerisblade is from. Due to its elegance I lean to Java, but it could be a maduran blade as well. It is very tricky to pin a blade as this one in an area from only a picture. But I still wish to stay at my earlier remark, Keris Madura.