Javanese or Balinese Nogo

Karttikeya · 16th May 2012, 04:27 AM

Need your opinion to identify this blade. I have attached naga blade photos.
Blade and gonjo length are respectively 43 cm and 11 cm, I myself reckon that this blade is a Javanese blade, but if we see the blade length which is quite big for javanese typical blades, I might classify it as Balinese blade, the blade is on Balinese dress as well. There is also an opinion that the blade could come from most eastern part of east Java. I look forward your opinion..Thanking you in advance.

David · 16th May 2012, 06:24 AM

Yes, almost 17 inches is indeed a long Javanese blade, but this does not look like Balinese work to me.

One can find many Javanese blades in Bali dress, so i wouldn't necessarily take that into consideration.

Karttikeya · 16th May 2012, 11:56 AM

Hi David, thank you for the comment. I totally agree with you, many Javanese blades in Bali dress however the dress particularly original dress, can will give great clue to identify blade origin..Frankly, I am not sure its wrongko in Bali dress, here I attached the wrongko pic probably you can tell me where is the wrongko from whether Bali or Java..

Jean · 16th May 2012, 01:42 PM

This wrongko does not look balinese from the bulky proportions and the lack of carving details on the crosspiece, and the slim stem (rather from East Java?).
I personally wonder whether the blade is really old or artificially aged, the pamor fully covering the naga head does not look natural for instance but I may be wrong....

Regards

David · 16th May 2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

...however the dress particularly original dress, can will give great clue to identify blade origin..Frankly, I am not sure its wrongko in Bali dress, here I attached the wrongko pic probably you can tell me where is the wrongko from whether Bali or Java..

I'm not sure what you mean by "original" dress. Most old keris don't have the dress they were "born" with so generally when i use the term i am referring to dress made specifically for the blade. Again that doesn't tell us where the blade was made if we can ID the dress, only where the dress was made. Also, i have seen old dress adapted to certain keris where the adaptation is not at all obvious. What does that tell us about the origin of the blade. Nothing.

I think you are right to suspect, though, that this dress is not Balinese. It might just be the angle that you photographed it, but wrongko does not look to be the right shape and proportion for Balinese sheaths of this type, so maybe E. Java is it's origins after all. Also it's wearing a Javanese mendak.

GIO · 16th May 2012, 06:58 PM

IMHO the only part which COULD be considered Balinese is the hilt. I think that the bade is definitely non-Balinese.

Rick · 16th May 2012, 07:14 PM

The dress also appears quite new judging from the pictures .

Karttikeya · 17th May 2012, 05:33 AM

Hi Jane, I also doubt the dress is Balinese style therefore I asked your opinion about it..For naga head whether that it's true or artificial, I do not know it exactly, here I attached another pic, probably it will give you more information..

OK David, I do agree with your statement, the only dress will never tell us the blade origin, the dress can be made anywhere and any style, no matter where did the blade come from..Any opinion about the dress origin? Is it East Java style?

Hi Rick, yes, the dress looks like new made..

Jean · 17th May 2012, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

Hi Jane, I also doubt the dress is Balinese style therefore I asked your opinion about it..For naga head whether that it's true or artificial, I do not know it exactly, here I attached another pic, probably it will give you more information..

Hi Karttikeya,
Thanks for the detailed pictures. I did not mean that the naga head is artificial or added as the pamor lines are smooth but rather that the wear of the blade (both the iron and the cleaved pamor layers) look artificial as if the blade had been artificially aged by chemical treatment for instance. Again this is my own impression and I could be wrong, opinions from other members will be welcome. There are so many fake naga blades on the market that I have become very suspicious with these pieces

Regards
Jean

Karttikeya · 20th May 2012, 09:42 AM

Yupe Jean, so many fake naga blades on the market nowadays, they could be recarved from old blade or aged by chemical to give archaic impression on blades, and this blade is no exception

I also did not see different color tone as presence of core which was commonly found on old blade. But I've been curious about the wrongko origin, might it be East Java wrongko?

Jean · 20th May 2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

But I've been curious about the wrongko origin, might it be East Java wrongko?

Hi Karttikeya,
IMO the wrongko probably originates from East Java/ Madura and is recently made as said by Rick. I saw similar but older specimens but unfortunately I have no pictures which I can show

.
Regards

Rick · 20th May 2012, 09:17 PM

And I'd lean toward Madura; there is something about the shape of the wrongko ..

16th May 2012, 04:27 AM	#1
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Javanese or Balinese Nogo Need your opinion to identify this blade. I have attached naga blade photos. Blade and gonjo length are respectively 43 cm and 11 cm, I myself reckon that this blade is a Javanese blade, but if we see the blade length which is quite big for javanese typical blades, I might classify it as Balinese blade, the blade is on Balinese dress as well. There is also an opinion that the blade could come from most eastern part of east Java. I look forward your opinion..Thanking you in advance. Attached Images

16th May 2012, 11:56 AM	#3
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Hi David, thank you for the comment. I totally agree with you, many Javanese blades in Bali dress however the dress particularly original dress, can will give great clue to identify blade origin..Frankly, I am not sure its wrongko in Bali dress, here I attached the wrongko pic probably you can tell me where is the wrongko from whether Bali or Java.. Attached Images

17th May 2012, 05:33 AM	#8
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Hi Jane, I also doubt the dress is Balinese style therefore I asked your opinion about it..For naga head whether that it's true or artificial, I do not know it exactly, here I attached another pic, probably it will give you more information.. OK David, I do agree with your statement, the only dress will never tell us the blade origin, the dress can be made anywhere and any style, no matter where did the blade come from..Any opinion about the dress origin? Is it East Java style? Hi Rick, yes, the dress looks like new made.. Attached Images Last edited by Karttikeya; 17th May 2012 at 05:55 AM. Reason: Add pic

20th May 2012, 09:17 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Dress Origin And I'd lean toward Madura; there is something about the shape of the wrongko ..

16th May 2012, 06:24 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	Yes, almost 17 inches is indeed a long Javanese blade, but this does not look like Balinese work to me. One can find many Javanese blades in Bali dress, so i wouldn't necessarily take that into consideration.

16th May 2012, 01:42 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This wrongko does not look balinese from the bulky proportions and the lack of carving details on the crosspiece, and the slim stem (rather from East Java?). I personally wonder whether the blade is really old or artificially aged, the pamor fully covering the naga head does not look natural for instance but I may be wrong.... Regards

16th May 2012, 06:58 PM	#6
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	IMHO the only part which COULD be considered Balinese is the hilt. I think that the bade is definitely non-Balinese.

16th May 2012, 07:14 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The dress also appears quite new judging from the pictures .

20th May 2012, 09:42 AM	#10
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Yupe Jean, so many fake naga blades on the market nowadays, they could be recarved from old blade or aged by chemical to give archaic impression on blades, and this blade is no exception I also did not see different color tone as presence of core which was commonly found on old blade. But I've been curious about the wrongko origin, might it be East Java wrongko?