Anyone recognizeStamps on Cinquedea

[longfellow]

I was wondering if anyone might know the marks - stamps - on this blade.

The piece is labeled a 'cinqedea', ca.1500, Italian. The overall length is 29 3/4", the blade length is 23 1/4" and the width at the guard is 4 1/4".

ID on the markings would be great and comments on the piece would be welcome.

It has been hanging on the wall of my dad's livingroom for 40 yrs. or so and my mom is now 'cleaning house' but my dad doesn't have a memory anymore and didn't make notes so I don't really have any information on it other than it came from an estate sale in the Santa Barbara (CA) area many years ago.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by longfellow

ID on the markings would be great and comments on the piece would be welcome.

It would not surprise me if this was a replica.
Please post the photo of the whole piece.

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

It would not surprise me if this was a replica.
Please post the photo of the whole piece.

Personally, it would surprise if it wasn't a replica. Not sure I could handle the thought of how much a real one might be worth.

Here's an 'overall' of the piece - if there is something or an angle you want a shot of, please let me know.

[cornelistromp]

yes it is nice however it is not an original cinquedea.
it is a 19thC or later reproduction.

best,

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes it is nice however it is not an original cinquedea.
it is a 19thC or later reproduction.

best,

Thank you for your suggestion of when the piece was made. Like I said, it would surprise me if it wasn't a reproduction.

However, back to my original question - does any one happen to know what the stamps on the blade are? or are for?

They aren't 'holes' (they don't go all the way through), but deep stamps in the blade. Are they decoration? or was somebody bored that day? or indication of a maker or city? or what? Does anybody have any idea?

I haven't been able to find enough pieces that aren't the fantasy toys or modern version replicas to be able to determine what the marks are.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Longfellow,
I would suggest that these stamps are part and parcel of the makers attempt to give the piece a more "authentic" medieval feel. A great many authentic old pieces have makers marks, religious devices, "lucky" marks etc. stamped or engraved into them and I think the marks on your dagger are there to give a more historic feel to the piece. In the 19thC a lot of reproductions were made to fill the great houses of the day. Some of those were of good quality being manufactured with careful attention detail so much so that it is not unusual to find these Victorian 'repros' being touted as the real thing from some dealers and auction houses. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Forgot to say, check out the 'Early makers trade marks' thread in the Classic Thread part of the Forum and you will see marks which resemble yours in a generic fashion.
Regards,
Norman.

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Longfellow,
I would suggest that these stamps are part and parcel of the makers attempt to give the piece a more "authentic" medieval feel.
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you, Norman.

I'm familiar with 'place holders' in a collection until the real thing comes along or whatever. And, not only did the estates have them, but good replicas were made for the theatre and such.

Having liquidated a 600+ piece collection of my dad's a few years ago and discovering that there were some incredibly good real ones mixed in, I try to cover all bases prior to deciding what to do with things. This is one of the pieces that was, until recently, still 'hanging around' (pun intended) along with a Ram Dha, parrying weapon, Qama and so on.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'll try and hit a few more books and see if I run across what the marks were suppose to represent. Who knows, perhaps it was made for a particular play.

Best regards.

[Matchlock]

Hi Longfellow and Norman,

I have known these star-shaped or flower-like punches as simple decorative patterns for the standard blacksmith's workshop. E.g., many 18th and 19th c. axe heads and related everyday-use ironworks show them, for example door hinges.

Best,
Michael

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Longfellow and Norman,

I have known these star-shaped of flower-like punches as simple decorative patterns for the standard blacksmith's workshop. E.g., many 18th and 19th c. axe heads show them.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael.

Thank you very much. There were a few axes in his collection, too and perhaps that is where I have the vague recollection of seeing something like those stars/flowers. There were so many pieces, so little time and so much information to pour over that, at my age, the ram seems to be full and I have to flush the cache every once in a while to add more information. The nudge is appreciated!

[Matchlock]

Thanks, Longfellow,

I know that state of mind, believe me!

Many everyday-use items of ironwork such as door hinges or anvils often also show such punched star- or flower-like designs.

For genuine early-16th c. North Italian cinquedeae, their characteristically fluted blades and marks, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=cinquedeae


Best,
m

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thanks, Longfellow,

I know that state of mind, believe me!

Many everyday-use items of ironwork such as door hinges or anvils often also show such punched star- or flower-like designs.

For genuine early-16th c. North Italian cinquedeae, their characteristically fluted blades and marks, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=cinquedeae


Best,
m

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the link. Those are some real nice looking pieces (understatement smilie here) and the information is priceless!

Had I not gotten off onto Japanese potteries and porcelains and other Oriental areas, I would have been right there in the midst of collecting edged pieces. The Japanese swords nearly tipped me far enough that direction, however, I will be satisfied with some of the pieces I acquired from the collection (I still have the Black Sea Yataghan).

Thank you, once again, for taking the time with this, sometimes, rather dense person.

[Matchlock]

Hi Longfellow,

I must say I have only encountered one single person here so far whom I would call 'dense', and it's definitely not you!

Providing useful information has always been a pleasure to me.

Best,
m

[Jim McDougall]

Longfellow (outstanding moniker!! and I heartily concur with Michael, you are anything but 'dense' and I admire the approach you are taking to the handling of the weapons of your fathers estate. As I recall from my early days of collecting in Southern California, there were some great arms which ended up in Santa Barbara along with many other regions near Los Angeles and Hollywood. There were many weapons in the warehouses of the movie studios, in fact I recall many cases of deaccessing these items, many which were convincing props and many authentic. Valentino himself became a sword collector through many authentic items acquired and used in his films.

Michael is of course spot on with noting the use of these decorative stamps in axes and various tools made by blacksmiths, and it seems this kind of simple decorative arrangement was used with simple floral and other devices. There were many stage props and theatrical weapons produced in the 19th century for productions, besides the very impressive reproductions made for gentlemans parlors and smoking rooms in these times. I can recall research being done, on a cinquedea which was used for opera performances some time ago, but this was a quite early one which may even have had illustrious connections to the Borgia's descendants but cannot recall details at the moment. I think it was being published.

In any case, even these weapons which were made for theatrical use typically have fascinating histories of thier own.

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by longfellow

Personally, it would surprise if it wasn't a replica.

Good!
This piece is so obviously "not real" that I was trying to be as indirect as possible, by using castrated language, so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities. I hope the moderating team appreciates my effort!

[longfellow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Longfellow (outstanding moniker!! and I heartily concur with Michael, you are anything but 'dense' and I admire the approach you are taking to the handling of the weapons of your fathers estate. As I recall from my early days of collecting in Southern California, there were some great arms which ended up in Santa Barbara along with many other regions near Los Angeles and Hollywood. There were many weapons in the warehouses of the movie studios, in fact I recall many cases of deaccessing these items, many which were convincing props and many authentic. Valentino himself became a sword collector through many authentic items acquired and used in his films.

Michael is of course spot on with noting the use of these decorative stamps in axes and various tools made by blacksmiths, and it seems this kind of simple decorative arrangement was used with simple floral and other devices. There were many stage props and theatrical weapons produced in the 19th century for productions, besides the very impressive reproductions made for gentlemans parlors and smoking rooms in these times. I can recall research being done, on a cinquedea which was used for opera performances some time ago, but this was a quite early one which may even have had illustrious connections to the Borgia's descendants but cannot recall details at the moment. I think it was being published.

In any case, even these weapons which were made for theatrical use typically have fascinating histories of thier own.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the note. Yes, theatrical use was a large market for the use of reproductions and some were quite good. My dad was in theatre for many years, having graduated from Julliard.

You are quite correct about the weapons that are in the prop departments (or, were, at least). Picked up a Spencer carbine - the one where the clip slides into the butt of the stock) at an antique mall in Pasadena after being deaccessed by the 20th Century Fox studio. They used to use the real thing, especially for the close-up shots. At this very moment, I'm sitting here with a Japanese matchlock pistol on my lap and the similar rifle on the floor next to me trying to reconcile the fact that they may be real and have been hanging on the wall over my dad's chair for the past 35 years, at least - they came from an estate sale down the street.

Ah, but for the good old days. Those things don't happen around Santa Barbara, or even Hollywood much any more. Everything goes through auction or everybody knows the friend of a friend who knows an antique dealer.

My thanks to Michael. A valuble asset to have on your forums.

*Dimitry, you have more tact than I frequently have. Thank you but I'm one of those who wouldn't have taken offense had you just laughed out loud. Some of us know when we don't know, but thank you again for your tact.

Best regards to all and thank you.