Indian Composite Piece For Comment

CourseEight · 17th July 2009, 09:29 PM

Recently ended on ebay, this sword is obviously a composite. When, and for use or resale, I have no idea. OAL 84 cm, hilt brass. But, I think the components themselves are of interest, and I was hoping for any observations anyone may have about either part (blade or handle).

Thanks!

--Radleigh

katana · 17th July 2009, 10:05 PM

Hi Courseeight,
Strange piece.....do I see wootz

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2009, 11:34 PM

Very unusual! This seems to reflect the very early hilt form of the khanda, and obviously not a weapon in the true sense as well as clearly composite. It seems there are traces of red paint? Perhaps a votive temple item?
The nagan blade and interpretations of early actual weapon types would suggest something perhaps used processionally or ceremonially.

Best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 18th July 2009, 12:11 PM

Hi Radleigh

This is indeed interesting.
I find myself wondering (As Jim clearly has) about the rather chunky Khanda hilt.
What struck me is the fact that the pommel appears to be a 'ring' as does the 'slot' for the 'blade'.
I am wondering if this was the hilt from a Khanda hilted Gargaz (or similar mace weapon) as that would explain the circular mounting holes to accomodate the thin steel shaft.
I can try and find a picture of one if anyone wants?

Regards
Gene

katana · 18th July 2009, 02:44 PM

Hi Radleigh,
The curves of the blade suggests to me that they were formed by 'stock removal' .....ground out sections of, I think , a Khanda blade. The re-inforcing strip seems also to have had the same treatment.
If correct, the next question is Why ? Perhaps there was severe edge damage and grinding the curves removed the damaged sections and gave the blade a new lease of life. I still believe the blade to be wootz so saving the blade makes even more sense as I believe that if wootz was reworked using a forge and anvil, the wootz patterning would be destroyed.
I think Gene has the hilt question covered ie a mace 'hilt'

Disappointingly the overall assembly of the piece seems a little crude. It would be a real shame that this composite was a 'modern' creation and a good wootz blade was re-worked (butchered) into a Naga style to try and increase its value (they do seem to be popular, commanding high prices)

Kind Regards David

.

CourseEight · 18th July 2009, 02:49 PM

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

CourseEight · 18th July 2009, 02:55 PM

Hi David our replies crossed:

The thought had crossed my mind that the blade was originally a "normal" khanda, reworked in the nagan form. I guess my hope is that the curves in the blade seem to be reasonably well done (rather than the pointy types you see in for example later fillipino pieces). When I see the blade in person I'll know if there are ugly grind marks, whether it is sharp, etc. That will answer a lot of questions.

--Radleigh

Atlantia · 18th July 2009, 09:46 PM

Great thoughts David!

As for the mace, I thought I'd be able to find more than one picture! Sorry its not a lot of help, but you can see that the possibility is there:

Notice that the mace version doesn't have a back spike for the 'hand and a half' grip. That would also be fine with your 'ring' pommel.

Atlantia · 18th July 2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thanks fo the replies:

I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it.

As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either.

Thanks for your continued interest and observations!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh

The paint also got me thinking. There are a reasonable amount of 'painted' (enameled, whatever) Khuds and Dhals that turn up. Certainly cheaper than Koftgari and it'd act as a rustproofing.
Wonder if your hilt was on a steel mace and the hilt was painted to 'disguise' its bronze construction rather than steel?

Regards
Gene

CourseEight · 19th July 2009, 06:06 AM

Thank you for your observations Gene, and for the picture of the mace. A couple of points:

(1) Since the pommel is rounded, as is the bolster, this wouldeem to imply that you think the shaft of the mace passed through the guard and attached to the pommel. Therefore the handle (gripped part) was in a single piece with the shaft of the mace. In my experience, however, the khanda handles on Indian pieces are generally a seperate piece rivetted onto the shaft/blade. The mace in the picture seems of this type also. Does anyone have any examples of a seperate guard piece, but a single piece shaft/handle?

(2) The paint on the handle looks to me to be accenting the faces and in chevron patterns, so I'm not sure it was ever supposed to cover the whole handle. Also, there are plenty of non-steel (copper, brass, bronze) Indian handles out there, some on quite fine pieces, so I'm not sure anyone would have a reason to hide the fact the handle was brass in the first place.

Thanks for the comments, and the more the merrier!

--Radleigh

Atlantia · 19th July 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thank you for your observations Gene, and for the picture of the mace. A couple of points:

(1) Since the pommel is rounded, as is the bolster, this wouldeem to imply that you think the shaft of the mace passed through the guard and attached to the pommel. Therefore the handle (gripped part) was in a single piece with the shaft of the mace. In my experience, however, the khanda handles on Indian pieces are generally a seperate piece rivetted onto the shaft/blade. The mace in the picture seems of this type also. Does anyone have any examples of a seperate guard piece, but a single piece shaft/handle?

(2) The paint on the handle looks to me to be accenting the faces and in chevron patterns, so I'm not sure it was ever supposed to cover the whole handle. Also, there are plenty of non-steel (copper, brass, bronze) Indian handles out there, some on quite fine pieces, so I'm not sure anyone would have a reason to hide the fact the handle was brass in the first place.

Thanks for the comments, and the more the merrier!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,

1: I also have never seen a Khanda hilt like yours, and the 'through' handle of a mace weapon or similar was the only possibility I could come up with.
You don't think the 'ring' pommel looks like it was made to slip over the end of whatever passed through the guard?
I couldn't find anymore pictures of Khanda handled Gargaz or other similar pieces.
There was at least one on ebay in the last 6 months or so, must be others on the forum with pics.

2: Fair comments, I don't disagree. I'm just musing 'aloud' and throwing ideas out there. I've personally never seen a Bronze Khandar hilt, or for that matter ANY hilt that quite fits this shape.

Regards
Gene

trajan · 20th July 2009, 04:23 AM

Here are several maces. Most are like one pictured where rod is flattened out and attached to khanda hilt.

One with early style hilt I have has the rod going through and no back spike.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 05:24 AM

I've been missing out on this thread, and Gene and David just wanted to note outstanding observations on this hilt!!! I never even thought of these maces

and very much enjoying the progression along with Radleigh's also astute observations. It always makes me glad to see the Indian weapons a topic, there is so much yet to learn, and I always do when you guys get going!!!

Trajan, beautiful examples, thank you for showing them here. I know these were processional or bearing type weapons, and the red coloring was I believe key in ceremonial regalia if I recall correctly. Regardless, these things are pretty scary looking, and definitely wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one.

Thanks so much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

trajan · 20th July 2009, 06:04 AM

Hi Jim,

Actually the maces pictured are heavy combat worthy weapons of the 16th-18th centrury. I did not picture any of the more ceremonial types as most of them seem to have lighter construction and non-khanda hilts.

matt

trajan · 20th July 2009, 06:14 AM

I would also note that the long extended bracing resembles that of the ceremonial or dance pata. Pata hilts that have had combat blades replaced with thin flexible ceremonial blades tend to have extra long bracing like this.

Matt

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2009, 06:58 AM

Hi Trajan,
Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed.
All the best,
Jim

CourseEight · 21st July 2009, 04:47 PM

Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace?

I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures.

Thanks again,

--Radleigh

trajan · 21st July 2009, 07:54 PM

Hello,

It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well.

Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer.

CourseEight · 25th July 2009, 01:31 AM

Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart.

Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form?

Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this?

katana · 30th July 2009, 02:20 PM

Hi Radleigh,
sorry to hear your disappointment about this piece

. Any news on the blade etch ? The guard is very interesting, the bird head appears to be an owl ....

"In India, a white owl is considered a companion and vāhana (Vehicle of god/goddess) of Lakṣmī, the goddess of wealth, and therefore a harbinger of prosperity. The owl has been adapted as an emblem to reflect its implications of wisdom (Wise old owl) by a revered military institution in India known as the Defense Services Staff College. In colloquial use, however, it is commonly used to refer to stupidity. The Hindi word for owl, ulloo is used to refer to a foolish person...."

The Defense Services Staff College was created 1905 as the Army Staff college in Deolali (near Bombay) before partition.

Is it possible that the hilt is ceremonial ..perhaps for the Army Staff College..the knuclebow 'arrangement' looks too weak for combat. The hinges have little strength, but judging by the colour variation of the guard / knuclebow perhaps a later addition.

Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2009, 05:24 PM

Here are my thoughts about the ’sword’.

The hilt is south Indian of a very old form, and the bird heads shown on the hand guard are parrots, a very beloved bird in south India. The blade does, of course, not belong to the hilt, but I don’t think it is a reworked khanda blade. Originally I believe the ‘blade’ must have been a rod, and not one to form a maze – so I believe it to have been a ‘sword’ for training.

CourseEight · 16th August 2009, 04:59 PM

Hi all --

Sorry for the long delay, but still have not polished the blade. As I said though, I'd be surprised if it came to anything.

Jens: Thanks so much foryour input! Another forum member has also put forthis idea to me via PM. I like it, because I think it explains why the hilt is designed to be "easy on easy off" : if the rod were would made for training, then it could surely break in the process and need replacement more often than an actualy steel weapon would.

A couple of questions: What do you think the origins of the blade are, and what sort of handle might it originally have had? Also, do you have any examples of Indian training weapons with "reusable parts"? I've seen training swords made entirely from laquered wood, but never one with a "real" hilt.

Thanks a lot!

--Radleigh

Jens Nordlunde · 16th August 2009, 05:54 PM

Radligh, you are welcome. My knowledge of training weapons is close to nothing, but my guess is that the ‘blade’ would have been a hard wood rod. With a hard wood ‘bade’ you could, during the training hurt your opponent quite a lot, but had the ‘blade’ been a rod of steel, you might kill him – and that is not really the idea of a training match – is it? Besides, such a ‘blade’ would be easy to change if it broke.

Try to ask the one who sent you a PM what he thinks, as he may know quite a lot more about the subject than I do, and may have better answers.

Jens

17th July 2009, 09:29 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Indian Composite Piece For Comment Recently ended on ebay, this sword is obviously a composite. When, and for use or resale, I have no idea. OAL 84 cm, hilt brass. But, I think the components themselves are of interest, and I was hoping for any observations anyone may have about either part (blade or handle). Thanks! --Radleigh Attached Images Last edited by CourseEight; 17th July 2009 at 10:19 PM.

18th July 2009, 02:44 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Radleigh, The curves of the blade suggests to me that they were formed by 'stock removal' .....ground out sections of, I think , a Khanda blade. The re-inforcing strip seems also to have had the same treatment. If correct, the next question is Why ? Perhaps there was severe edge damage and grinding the curves removed the damaged sections and gave the blade a new lease of life. I still believe the blade to be wootz so saving the blade makes even more sense as I believe that if wootz was reworked using a forge and anvil, the wootz patterning would be destroyed. I think Gene has the hilt question covered ie a mace 'hilt' Disappointingly the overall assembly of the piece seems a little crude. It would be a real shame that this composite was a 'modern' creation and a good wootz blade was re-worked (butchered) into a Naga style to try and increase its value (they do seem to be popular, commanding high prices) Kind Regards David . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 18th July 2009 at 05:19 PM.

20th July 2009, 04:23 AM	#12
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	maces Here are several maces. Most are like one pictured where rod is flattened out and attached to khanda hilt. One with early style hilt I have has the rod going through and no back spike. Attached Images

20th July 2009, 06:04 AM	#14
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	maces Hi Jim, Actually the maces pictured are heavy combat worthy weapons of the 16th-18th centrury. I did not picture any of the more ceremonial types as most of them seem to have lighter construction and non-khanda hilts. matt

20th July 2009, 06:14 AM	#15
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	bracing I would also note that the long extended bracing resembles that of the ceremonial or dance pata. Pata hilts that have had combat blades replaced with thin flexible ceremonial blades tend to have extra long bracing like this. Matt

17th July 2009, 10:05 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Courseeight, Strange piece.....do I see wootz Regards David

17th July 2009, 11:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Very unusual! This seems to reflect the very early hilt form of the khanda, and obviously not a weapon in the true sense as well as clearly composite. It seems there are traces of red paint? Perhaps a votive temple item? The nagan blade and interpretations of early actual weapon types would suggest something perhaps used processionally or ceremonially. Best regards, Jim

18th July 2009, 12:11 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Radleigh This is indeed interesting. I find myself wondering (As Jim clearly has) about the rather chunky Khanda hilt. What struck me is the fact that the pommel appears to be a 'ring' as does the 'slot' for the 'blade'. I am wondering if this was the hilt from a Khanda hilted Gargaz (or similar mace weapon) as that would explain the circular mounting holes to accomodate the thin steel shaft. I can try and find a picture of one if anyone wants? Regards Gene

18th July 2009, 02:49 PM	#6
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks fo the replies: I'd love to see pictures of anything with a similar hilt construction, both in terms of the round pommel and round bolster, and also the unusual attachment of the hand guard. That does appear to be red (and black) laquer or paint on there, but I'll know more when I get it. As for the blade, I'm keeping fingers crossed about its being wootz, but I'm not getting my hopes too up. Does anyone have examples of nagan-type blades that end with such a tip? Normally you see them tapering, rather than ending in the wide, almost spatulate way that khandas do. Also interesting is that the strap seems to be wiggly as well; never seen that either. Thanks for your continued interest and observations! --Radleigh

18th July 2009, 02:55 PM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi David our replies crossed: The thought had crossed my mind that the blade was originally a "normal" khanda, reworked in the nagan form. I guess my hope is that the curves in the blade seem to be reasonably well done (rather than the pointy types you see in for example later fillipino pieces). When I see the blade in person I'll know if there are ugly grind marks, whether it is sharp, etc. That will answer a lot of questions. --Radleigh

18th July 2009, 09:46 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Great thoughts David! As for the mace, I thought I'd be able to find more than one picture! Sorry its not a lot of help, but you can see that the possibility is there: Notice that the mace version doesn't have a back spike for the 'hand and a half' grip. That would also be fine with your 'ring' pommel.

19th July 2009, 06:06 AM	#10
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thank you for your observations Gene, and for the picture of the mace. A couple of points: (1) Since the pommel is rounded, as is the bolster, this wouldeem to imply that you think the shaft of the mace passed through the guard and attached to the pommel. Therefore the handle (gripped part) was in a single piece with the shaft of the mace. In my experience, however, the khanda handles on Indian pieces are generally a seperate piece rivetted onto the shaft/blade. The mace in the picture seems of this type also. Does anyone have any examples of a seperate guard piece, but a single piece shaft/handle? (2) The paint on the handle looks to me to be accenting the faces and in chevron patterns, so I'm not sure it was ever supposed to cover the whole handle. Also, there are plenty of non-steel (copper, brass, bronze) Indian handles out there, some on quite fine pieces, so I'm not sure anyone would have a reason to hide the fact the handle was brass in the first place. Thanks for the comments, and the more the merrier! --Radleigh

20th July 2009, 05:24 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I've been missing out on this thread, and Gene and David just wanted to note outstanding observations on this hilt!!! I never even thought of these maces and very much enjoying the progression along with Radleigh's also astute observations. It always makes me glad to see the Indian weapons a topic, there is so much yet to learn, and I always do when you guys get going!!! Trajan, beautiful examples, thank you for showing them here. I know these were processional or bearing type weapons, and the red coloring was I believe key in ceremonial regalia if I recall correctly. Regardless, these things are pretty scary looking, and definitely wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one. Thanks so much guys! All best regards, Jim

20th July 2009, 06:58 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Trajan, Thank you so much for the clarification, I worded that incorrectly, and meant to refer to examples that were ceremonial...which these clearly arent. Nicely stated, and these really are a fantastic grouping! It seems that these are well established as a weapon form, but can these be assigned to certain groups or regions? It would be great to know more on the examples you have displayed. All the best, Jim

21st July 2009, 04:47 PM	#17
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much Trajan for the great mace pictures! Is it your opinion also, then, that this hilt comes from a mace? I would also love to see examples of dance pata with long braces, if you happen to have any pictures. Thanks again, --Radleigh

21st July 2009, 07:54 PM	#18
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	sword Hello, It could be for a mace type but it could also have held an ax or spear as there were khanda hilted pieces with circular openings with these weapons as well. Here is a pic of a pata hilt with dance blade and added bracer. Attached Images

25th July 2009, 01:31 AM	#19
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Arrived today; construction exceptionally shotty and probably done for resale. Handle part was a metal pipe, and the whole thing was held together with a single brass screw. Took 5 inutes to take apart. Blade is probably NOT wootz but is a bit scratched so will have to be polished to be certain. Doubtful though. The tang has obviously been altered. Any thoughts as to the original handle form? Now the handle itself is quite interesting. As already noted the appature is round, and of the same diameter as the pommel, which is open on top. One new observation is that the handle is hollow; I'm not sure what that indicates, except that it is lighter weight than one would expect. But I think the big question is concerning the hindged construction of the guard/pommel. I was able to pop off the pommel before removing any other parts because of the hinge at the top. Are there any other examples of such a construction? Off the top of my head, the only reason to make something like this is to make it "easy on easy off" which would imply that this hilt as designed to accommodate easy switching. Any thoughts on this? Attached Images

30th July 2009, 02:20 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Radleigh, sorry to hear your disappointment about this piece . Any news on the blade etch ? The guard is very interesting, the bird head appears to be an owl .... "In India, a white owl is considered a companion and vāhana (Vehicle of god/goddess) of Lakṣmī, the goddess of wealth, and therefore a harbinger of prosperity. The owl has been adapted as an emblem to reflect its implications of wisdom (Wise old owl) by a revered military institution in India known as the Defense Services Staff College. In colloquial use, however, it is commonly used to refer to stupidity. The Hindi word for owl, ulloo is used to refer to a foolish person...." The Defense Services Staff College was created 1905 as the Army Staff college in Deolali (near Bombay) before partition. Is it possible that the hilt is ceremonial ..perhaps for the Army Staff College..the knuclebow 'arrangement' looks too weak for combat. The hinges have little strength, but judging by the colour variation of the guard / knuclebow perhaps a later addition. Regards David

31st July 2009, 05:24 PM	#21
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here are my thoughts about the ’sword’. The hilt is south Indian of a very old form, and the bird heads shown on the hand guard are parrots, a very beloved bird in south India. The blade does, of course, not belong to the hilt, but I don’t think it is a reworked khanda blade. Originally I believe the ‘blade’ must have been a rod, and not one to form a maze – so I believe it to have been a ‘sword’ for training.

16th August 2009, 04:59 PM	#22
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi all -- Sorry for the long delay, but still have not polished the blade. As I said though, I'd be surprised if it came to anything. Jens: Thanks so much foryour input! Another forum member has also put forthis idea to me via PM. I like it, because I think it explains why the hilt is designed to be "easy on easy off" : if the rod were would made for training, then it could surely break in the process and need replacement more often than an actualy steel weapon would. A couple of questions: What do you think the origins of the blade are, and what sort of handle might it originally have had? Also, do you have any examples of Indian training weapons with "reusable parts"? I've seen training swords made entirely from laquered wood, but never one with a "real" hilt. Thanks a lot! --Radleigh

16th August 2009, 05:54 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Radligh, you are welcome. My knowledge of training weapons is close to nothing, but my guess is that the ‘blade’ would have been a hard wood rod. With a hard wood ‘bade’ you could, during the training hurt your opponent quite a lot, but had the ‘blade’ been a rod of steel, you might kill him – and that is not really the idea of a training match – is it? Besides, such a ‘blade’ would be easy to change if it broke. Try to ask the one who sent you a PM what he thinks, as he may know quite a lot more about the subject than I do, and may have better answers. Jens