German Trade Blades

M.carter · 23rd April 2006, 09:52 AM

Hi,

I have always been fascinated by those german trade blades, found on Ethiopean gurades, usually marked G.G, and with a thermometer on the ricasso. Does anyone have any information on them. Is there a book or website where I could read about them, i.e place of manufacture, dates.....etc.

Jeff D · 23rd April 2006, 04:28 PM

Hi Mark,

You might want to start with this thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gesh

Jeff

M.carter · 23rd April 2006, 06:58 PM

Thanks Jeff, Ive seen that thread already, I actually handled one of those swords closely, and thats what got me into them. Im not interested in their ethiopean fittings (no offence), but more interested in the blades. They seem so "perfect", technically and physically.

I want to know about their history, and their use, where they ever mentioned in military reports? Which firm made them? (in solingen right??)

Jeff D · 23rd April 2006, 09:09 PM

Hi Mark,

A large number of these blades were produced by the Wilkinson firm in England. Solingen of course also produced many. Derek has the export catalogue pages from Wilkinson and Julius Voos of Solingen (I think he posted these on the old forum). F.W. Holler most likely produced the "thermometer" blades and my guess is that Kroneck produced the blades with the crown mark. I think most of these blades are late 19th and early 20th century.
As you saw in the last thread the G.G. most likely stands for the German patent mark Ges. Gesch..
Derek, roanoa and of course Jimmy McD can undoubtably add more to this.

All the Best
Jeff

M.carter · 23rd April 2006, 09:43 PM

Thanks alot Jeff

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2006, 04:33 AM

I think Derek and certainly Ron can add much more than I on these, but Jeffy

has really done some outstanding research on these blades, and most of the data I have has been acquired from his posts.
It seems plausible that the blades may have been supplied to Abyssinia via British exporters during the latter 19th century, despite thier Solingen production. Apparantly the Abyssinians particularly favored British products and Mole as well as Wilkinson furnished blades during this time. Wilkinson did not dominate the furnishing of such blades until the early 20th century,and by 1932 they appear to have exclusively furnished blades for the Ethiopian government under Emperor Haile Sellasie. Great Britain occupied the Port of Aden in Saudi Arabia, which may have been a source for the German blades as it was a key trade center as well. It would be difficult to determine more exactly, giving the political volatility prior to, during and just after WWI.

Many of these weapons may have seen service during the campaigns during the occupation there by Italy into the 1930's, however most seem to have been parade or ceremonial weapons. Most narratives, or historical accounts of these times and events typically carry little detail on weapons, however they do provide a good perspective on the costume and uniforms worn (especially "The Italian Invasion of Abyssinia", David Nicolle, Osprey #309).

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 24th April 2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think Derek and certainly Ron can add much more than I on these, but Jeffy

...
Jim

He He He ...

. Thanks Jim as always your depth of research never fails to impress.

lov'n it
Jeff

M.carter · 26th April 2006, 05:35 PM

Thanks alot Jim,

regarding Derek, where is he? Last time he logged on was in december 2005. I sent him a pm regarding one of his ethiopian swords.

Tim Simmons · 26th April 2006, 08:17 PM

The heavy straight German bladed swords used in Abyssinia are very nice indeed. I am not that impressed with the light cavalry type sabre like this one with the GG and thermometer stamp. I must add that most of the light cavalry type I have seen always display signs of considerable use.

roanoa · 26th April 2006, 09:35 PM

Hi guys. Just to share a couple of thoughts on the subject of imported blades. A few historical considerations first. The French were very "cozy" with the Ethiopians. In Menelik's time, French was the official diplomatic language and Court records were kept in French. The French also built the first railroad (Addis Abeba - Dire Dawa to the Somali coast). So one will find MANY French blades in Ethiopia. Some clearly marked, some rather anonymous. The German were masters in East Africa till WWI when they lost their colonies to the Brits. So they were neighbours. Easy enough for their blades to find a market. British blades became popular after WWI. Kenya and British Somalia being good neighbours with Ethiopia. British blades were held in such a high esteem that the word LONDON was used by the Ethiopians to mean EXCELLENT. Finally one must consider that the blades were not imported by the "government" but by suppliers, mostly of Armenian origin, who would market them on the Harar and Addis Abeba markets. Many blades would carry the name of the importer/supplier (like TERZIAN) and these name are often, wrongly, thought to be the name of the makers.

M.carter · 26th April 2006, 09:55 PM

Hello,

My dad has offered to buy me a gift and name it for my graduation next month, I chose a sword! Ehtiopian. Im still wondering which one to get, a broadsword, with the G.G blade, or the sabre, just like the one in your pic Tim. Both probably have seen some use, as both have light nicks on the edge(s), and have been resharpened (although carefully), and what appears to be blood stains. Stains that go almost vertically up the edge, and are quite thick. I wonder which one to get, the saber, or the Broadsword? Both are in good condition, which is more valuable as a collective piece? Im leaning towards the broadsword, but the saber is attractive too

I also found another broadsword, with apparently a British blade. The blade has been shortened, and has been etched with faces, and amhari script. I cant remember what is says on the ricasso, but im sure it was '(......) & (.....) CO.

How about these blade, G.G, wilkinson, were they well made by today's standards? I mean well hardened, tempered?

M.carter · 26th April 2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Hi guys. Just to share a couple of thoughts on the subject of imported blades. A few historical considerations first. The French were very "cozy" with the Ethiopians. In Menelik's time, French was the official diplomatic language and Court records were kept in French. The French also built the first railroad (Addis Abeba - Dire Dawa to the Somali coast). So one will find MANY French blades in Ethiopia. Some clearly marked, some rather anonymous. The German were masters in East Africa till WWI when they lost their colonies to the Brits. So they were neighbours. Easy enough for their blades to find a market. British blades became popular after WWI. Kenya and British Somalia being good neighbours with Ethiopia. British blades were held in such a high esteem that the word LONDON was used by the Ethiopians to mean EXCELLENT. Finally one must consider that the blades were not imported by the "government" but by suppliers, mostly of Armenian origin, who would market them on the Harar and Addis Abeba markets. Many blades would carry the name of the importer/supplier (like TERZIAN) and these name are often, wrongly, thought to be the name of the makers.

Other than trade blades, have you seen any military issue blades on ethiopian swords? Ive seen a pattern 1822 on an arabian sayf once, that was really cool.

Tim Simmons · 26th April 2006, 10:04 PM

Get the one in the best condition. Just because a sword or knife is sharp does not mean it has been used. The light sabre is designed with some flexibility to hit hardish objects like heads at spead usually with the last section of the blade. I would go for the one with the best scabbard even if the blade might have a few patches of rust and so on. Tim.

roanoa · 26th April 2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Other than trade blades, have you seen any military issue blades on ethiopian swords? Ive seen a pattern 1822 on an arabian sayf once, that was really cool.

I have one with a mint French military blade (haven't found out which pattern yet), one with a German light cavalry blade and one with a British patten 1796 hatchet point (unfortunatelly this one is badly rusted.).

M.carter · 27th April 2006, 07:00 PM

Ive just seen the other sword. The writing on the ricasso reads:

GHKHA & Co

HARRAR

Now I know that harrar was a town in Abyssinia, but does anyone know what the letters in the first line says?

23rd April 2006, 09:52 AM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	German Trade Blades Hi, I have always been fascinated by those german trade blades, found on Ethiopean gurades, usually marked G.G, and with a thermometer on the ricasso. Does anyone have any information on them. Is there a book or website where I could read about them, i.e place of manufacture, dates.....etc.

26th April 2006, 08:17 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The heavy straight German bladed swords used in Abyssinia are very nice indeed. I am not that impressed with the light cavalry type sabre like this one with the GG and thermometer stamp. I must add that most of the light cavalry type I have seen always display signs of considerable use. Attached Images

23rd April 2006, 04:28 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Mark, You might want to start with this thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gesh Jeff

23rd April 2006, 06:58 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thanks Jeff, Ive seen that thread already, I actually handled one of those swords closely, and thats what got me into them. Im not interested in their ethiopean fittings (no offence), but more interested in the blades. They seem so "perfect", technically and physically. I want to know about their history, and their use, where they ever mentioned in military reports? Which firm made them? (in solingen right??)

23rd April 2006, 09:09 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Mark, A large number of these blades were produced by the Wilkinson firm in England. Solingen of course also produced many. Derek has the export catalogue pages from Wilkinson and Julius Voos of Solingen (I think he posted these on the old forum). F.W. Holler most likely produced the "thermometer" blades and my guess is that Kroneck produced the blades with the crown mark. I think most of these blades are late 19th and early 20th century. As you saw in the last thread the G.G. most likely stands for the German patent mark Ges. Gesch.. Derek, roanoa and of course Jimmy McD can undoubtably add more to this. All the Best Jeff

23rd April 2006, 09:43 PM	#5
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thanks alot Jeff

24th April 2006, 04:33 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	I think Derek and certainly Ron can add much more than I on these, but Jeffy has really done some outstanding research on these blades, and most of the data I have has been acquired from his posts. It seems plausible that the blades may have been supplied to Abyssinia via British exporters during the latter 19th century, despite thier Solingen production. Apparantly the Abyssinians particularly favored British products and Mole as well as Wilkinson furnished blades during this time. Wilkinson did not dominate the furnishing of such blades until the early 20th century,and by 1932 they appear to have exclusively furnished blades for the Ethiopian government under Emperor Haile Sellasie. Great Britain occupied the Port of Aden in Saudi Arabia, which may have been a source for the German blades as it was a key trade center as well. It would be difficult to determine more exactly, giving the political volatility prior to, during and just after WWI. Many of these weapons may have seen service during the campaigns during the occupation there by Italy into the 1930's, however most seem to have been parade or ceremonial weapons. Most narratives, or historical accounts of these times and events typically carry little detail on weapons, however they do provide a good perspective on the costume and uniforms worn (especially "The Italian Invasion of Abyssinia", David Nicolle, Osprey #309). Best regards, Jim

26th April 2006, 05:35 PM	#8
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thanks alot Jim, regarding Derek, where is he? Last time he logged on was in december 2005. I sent him a pm regarding one of his ethiopian swords.

26th April 2006, 09:35 PM	#10
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 233	Hi guys. Just to share a couple of thoughts on the subject of imported blades. A few historical considerations first. The French were very "cozy" with the Ethiopians. In Menelik's time, French was the official diplomatic language and Court records were kept in French. The French also built the first railroad (Addis Abeba - Dire Dawa to the Somali coast). So one will find MANY French blades in Ethiopia. Some clearly marked, some rather anonymous. The German were masters in East Africa till WWI when they lost their colonies to the Brits. So they were neighbours. Easy enough for their blades to find a market. British blades became popular after WWI. Kenya and British Somalia being good neighbours with Ethiopia. British blades were held in such a high esteem that the word LONDON was used by the Ethiopians to mean EXCELLENT. Finally one must consider that the blades were not imported by the "government" but by suppliers, mostly of Armenian origin, who would market them on the Harar and Addis Abeba markets. Many blades would carry the name of the importer/supplier (like TERZIAN) and these name are often, wrongly, thought to be the name of the makers.

26th April 2006, 09:55 PM	#11
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello, My dad has offered to buy me a gift and name it for my graduation next month, I chose a sword! Ehtiopian. Im still wondering which one to get, a broadsword, with the G.G blade, or the sabre, just like the one in your pic Tim. Both probably have seen some use, as both have light nicks on the edge(s), and have been resharpened (although carefully), and what appears to be blood stains. Stains that go almost vertically up the edge, and are quite thick. I wonder which one to get, the saber, or the Broadsword? Both are in good condition, which is more valuable as a collective piece? Im leaning towards the broadsword, but the saber is attractive too I also found another broadsword, with apparently a British blade. The blade has been shortened, and has been etched with faces, and amhari script. I cant remember what is says on the ricasso, but im sure it was '(......) & (.....) CO. How about these blade, G.G, wilkinson, were they well made by today's standards? I mean well hardened, tempered?

26th April 2006, 10:04 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Get the one in the best condition. Just because a sword or knife is sharp does not mean it has been used. The light sabre is designed with some flexibility to hit hardish objects like heads at spead usually with the last section of the blade. I would go for the one with the best scabbard even if the blade might have a few patches of rust and so on. Tim.

27th April 2006, 07:00 PM	#15
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Ive just seen the other sword. The writing on the ricasso reads: GHKHA & Co HARRAR Now I know that harrar was a town in Abyssinia, but does anyone know what the letters in the first line says?