Help to identifying a type of (British) sword

[Belgian1]

Hello from Belgium, to all members,
Yesterday, in a French auction room I noticed the passage of that seems to be an British sword of the type looked like a model 1831 but I did not know this type of deep carving on the blade, or this type of guard in the shape of S. In addition I did not know if there were badges with a rose surrounded by laurel on the British sword guard.
It was accompanied by a "scarce" Napoleonic scabbard for a An IX sword, maybe it is what made this lot interesting, except if the English sword seems a good model 1831 for you.

Thank you for your opinions and nice afternoon to all

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello from Belgium, to all members,
Yesterday, in a French auction room I noticed the passage of that seems to be an British sword of the type looked like a model 1831 but I did not know this type of deep carving on the blade, or this type of guard in the shape of S. In addition I did not know if there were badges with a rose surrounded by laurel on the British sword guard.
It was accompanied by a "scarce" Napoleonic scabbard for a An IX sword, maybe it is what made this lot interesting, except if the English sword seems a good model 1831 for you.

Thank you for your opinions and nice afternoon to all

Nice sabre Belgian!

After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, both French and British forces were enthralled with the curved sabres of the Mamluk warriors. The influence of exotica extended to both England and the Continent, and officers began to adopt these kinds of 'pistol grip' (Ottoman) hilts on curved sabres.

The British M1831 sabres for general and staff officers was a regulation pattern but these swords were well in use by both French and British officers.

The decorative detail in the hilt may offer clues as to what context this sword was intended, also the deep relief on the blade which you say is carved. The British versions seem to have been typically acid etched and had makers names (one I had was to Manton & Co. Calcutta) and usually had ivory hilts.

I suspect this one is French, which may account for the accompanying scabbard, but I do not have the French pattern and military references, often thry can be found online ,I would search under French mameluke sabres.


These are very attractive and desirable sabres, and I would mention that the French military even established Mamluk units, and officers of these were of course French.


Perhaps someone out there better acquainted with French military swords might have more specific details.

[Madnumforce]

I agree with Jim that the scabbard fittings look pretty French. It's a pattern often found on the Chasseur à Cheval de la Garde saber. But on the other hand, that style of etching is about as unFrench as can be. This style of etching was never seen on French sabers, ever. But Matt Easton sold a Eickhorn made 1889 pattern Belgian cavalry officer saber that had a similar kind of etching. As for the style of the hilt, and mostly "crossguard" I can't really tell. I believe I never came across one that had the "shield" so bulky. Overall it's rather weird.

[Belgian1]

Thank you very much for your information that helps me to direct my research. Yes it is true that the engraving is very deep. I will think rather of a model used in India or for a "??? Indian Officer of the British Army ???". I say that because there is an engraving of Eastern type crossed swords surmounted by a typical Indian or Indo-Persian building ... (????) may be a furbisher working in India for the British Army ... . ????
I put enlargements of photos to better make you an impression of engravings and guard brass.
Have a good day

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

I agree with Jim that the scabbard fittings look pretty French. It's a pattern often found on the Chasseur à Cheval de la Garde saber. But on the other hand, that style of etching is about as unFrench as can be. This style of etching was never seen on French sabers, ever. But Matt Easton sold a Eickhorn made 1889 pattern Belgian cavalry officer saber that had a similar kind of etching. As for the style of the hilt, and mostly "crossguard" I can't really tell. I believe I never came across one that had the "shield" so bulky. Overall it's rather weird.

Yes I agree for the scabbard. This scabbard does not belong to this sword, it was presented during the sale but it is a Napoleonic scabbard for a An IX Model Officer's Sword of a light Cavalry Regiment. (This thype of scabbard is more rare that to find the sword itself). But I agree that it is totally different origin that this (supposed 1831 type)
Kind regards

[fernando]

-

[Madnumforce]

Isn't the thin line six-pointed star a hugely common "mark" on British swords? I know it's part of the proof slug. Maybe it's a try at a British (Wilkinson, etc) blade counterfeit?

Matt Easton's video on the so-called "star of David" and proof slug

[Belgian1]

Yes indeed, it's a Wilkinson "superior steel test mark" for British swords.
I do not know if there is a lead in the star because I did not buy this lot. Personally I was interested in the scabbard because I have a Napoleonic officer sword AN IX and I was looking for this rare scabbard. I think this lot was too expensive for me ..... But actually, in the picture we can see letters in the center of this star.

[Belgian1]

I also see on guard the typical English flowers (rose, thistle and shamrock).
The engravings seem to me, however, of "good qualities" to be a copy of sword but also it seems that there are traces of blackened rusts which would allow to imagine some old age of the steel.
In any case very enigmatic sword that my impression seems as good as rare ... but it's my personal idea. Now I have to find similar examples because if it's a fake, it should be current and easy to find on the Internet and if it is rare, some day, a member of this Forum will enlighten us :-)
Now I regret not having outbid more ..... :-)

[Jim McDougall]

Now that I see the detail of the blade and hilt (beautifully photographed BTW!) I very much agree this is likely for a British officer of the Raj. Note the pavilion with flags and the cannon (I always think of the movie "The Far Pavilions" which was about the Raj).
Good point about the Star of Solomon at the forte, which indeed is seen on Wilkinson's swords in the same location as a proof slug surround, but this interpretation is not meant as a deception.
This symbol was primarily a symbol of strength and represents interlocking triangles (as I was told by Wilkinson-Latham years ago).
The use of this symbol is known in Muslim context very well, and is seen on some Arab swords, and here is likely placed similarly with plausibly Mughal connotation.

It seems that the reversed quillon terminals and guard may suggest an officers saber, perhaps an equerry, if I can recall Robson (which I don't have on hand at the moment).

That French scabbard is a find in itself, and with the values of these early French sabres would be most desirable to a collector looking for a match to one without scabbard (often bring backs from the field) .

Also, as I mentioned there were outfitters in India for military items and often specifically for officers. The deep relief scenes as seen on this blade recalls this style used on Indian tulwars and shamshir with scenes of the hunt and animals etc. and termed shikargh.

[Belgian1]

Hello and thank you Jim for these very interesting information. It is true that it would be nice if I finally bought the Robson.
But to return to this sword I also thought (but with much doubt) that it could be an officer of the Raj .... what you seem to confirm.
I hope to have soon the chance to see another sword like this one pass in front of me because this time I will have no hesitation .... ;-)

Have a nice day

[Hotspur]

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

[TVV]

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

backwards

How about this "British" blade

[Jim McDougall]

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

[Belgian1]

Waaaaw !!!!! Congratulations Teodor ;-)

Hi Theodor, congratulations for your discovery !!!!! :-) I think you changed a big question mark into a beautiful discovery :-)

Great !!!!!
Respect from Belgium ;-)

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

Good evening, Thank you for your intervention that has sufficiently attracted my attention for me to research the position of the star of "proof test".
Here is what I could find and I can assure you that these are authentic British swords from 1865 - 1905.
Photos 1: 1865-1875 Rifle Man Officer
Photo 2: Infantry Officer before 1892
Photo 3: Georges V WWI Period King
Photo 4: Royal Army Medical Officer 1905
Photo 5: Advertisement for British Thurkle swords in 1901

You see that the Chinese are not the only ones to place the "proof test" star against the edges of the blade or not centered. May be they were inspired by the excellent British manufacturers in the nineteenth century ;-)

Kind regards from Belgium

(Pictures are kept from the excellent web site: Easton Antique Arms and I thank him for his nice work)

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

[Hotspur]

Foot in mouth?

Enjoy
GC

The Emirate of Afghanistan 1823-1926
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...926%29.svg.png

most similar but still missing the middle flag
1901-1919 with cannon and swords
I still don't see it as true
The thing is that none higher would be a very Muslim thing and certainly, a flag would not be. Whatever.

[TVV]

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

[Hotspur]

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade

...................and sorry, I would not agree it is a native Afghani made sword. That opinion based on the elements I have outlined.

Cheers
GC

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

...................and sorry, I would not agree it is a native Afghani made sword. That opinion based on the elements I have outlined.

Cheers
GC

Not agreeing is perfectly fine, no need to apologize. One needs to consider all possible scenarios.

I have seen Afghan shashkas with Toledo made blades (early 20th century Toledo manufacture) and so it is entirely possible that this is a European made blade. One would expect to see some manufacturer's marks on a European blade though.

Is it also possible that someone in China decided to make a copy of a British sword, but for whatever reason copied from an old Afghan military sword, which would be quite funny, and also unlikely, at least in my opinion.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

Exactly!! Perfectly explained and 100% agree. The skills of the Afghans in arms production is astonishing.........and as noted, many arms are well made copies but the markings often are readily discernible as non authentic.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Belgian1

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

Thank you very much Belgian!

[Ian]

The Afghan attribution seems to be correct. This afternoon I was sent pictures of a similar sword by one of the many sword enthusiasts who come to this site anonymously. The sword has the mark of the Afghan armory as well, and shows similar deep chiseling along the blade. The pictures were sent to me with a note that this is a late 19th C. Afghan officer's sword.

Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum.



Ian.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian

... Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum ...

And why not ?

[Belgian1]

Hello Ivan,
Tank you for these very interesting photos that allow more and more to attribute this sword to an Officer of the Army of the Sultanate of Afghanistan under the reign of Abdur Rahman Khan (1880-1901).
I posted this request for information in this "European" section because I thought it was a British sword for Service in Middle East British possessions. But in fact, this post should now be in a "more oriental" section because we are normally sure that is Afghan sword for high rank officer of Abdur Rahman Khan Army.
On my side I found these photos in an Internet Forum.

For sabers of officers of the Army of the Sultanate of Afghanistan, it seems that there are European blades with European engravings, European blades with Afghan engravings, and local blades with local engravings. I imagine that as everywhere, it was a question of prestige and financial means to possess one or the other provenance ...
(Sorry for any copyrighted photos, but this is for non-commercial information, and these swords do not have patented invention requirements.) But I still thank the authors.

[Hotspur]

Etched, not engraved.

[kronckew]

I posted a very similar one at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=afghan+crest earlier in June, in the ethnic section.

Search and ye shall find

[Belgian1]

Thank you Kronckew for your contribution to this topic and this very interessant link
Kind regards from Belgium