The myth of the Hanshee{sic.} unveiled.

[spiral]

The myth of the Hanshee unveiled......................

Simon & I have decided to do our individual posts on the various aspects as it is then easier for both of us to deal with the questians that may arrise.

During our visit to Nepal we elicted the information that confirmed some of are previous thoughts, namly that hanshee is a miss pronounced versian of hansiya the ladies sickle used for cutting crops.

when The late great Bill Martino introduced the term to the west many years ago he did qualify it as a fireside story which may be innacurate. Unfortuantly the term then entered kukri folklore & was used by all the main western collectors.

He also described the "Hanshee" bieng held in a small wooden belt piece, fairly definative proof of the misunderstanding as that is how the Hansiya is carried, it is also called the ladies kukri by some Nepalis a term Bill also used to describe the "Hanshee"

It is easy to see how conversation desribing such a kukri could be misunderstood.

We incountered similar problems ourselves & it took many hours of cross questing by Simon & I with our own individual stylesto get the clear clarification of different terms involved.

The Nepalis who currently use the term Hanshee said they had learnt it from the published sword forum articles & pictures, thus adding further to the confusion.

The so called Hanshee is refered to in Nepal as a hand & a half sirupate & double hand sirupate, depending on the length of handle, In Nepali these are Hatrayadha Sirupate & Doharohat Sirupate, respectivly } Further qualifying would be the use of angled , straight , crescent or curved blade.

Sometimes in coversation for simplicity they just say sirupate.

The many divisions & names used in the west such as Budhume{big belly} & long leaf are unkwown in Nepal other than when they have learnt it from westerners.bigbelly in nepali is actualy thulebhunri & long leaf would be lamepate not langopate although either way its not a term they use.

A broad bladed kukri is a Chaura Dhar or Chaurapat {broad leaf} kukri

So sadly the many divisions used by us in the west are mere fantasys in as far as any historical accuracy goes.

The so called Hanshee which many of us have taken to be very early {pre 1820 is often quoted.} was still being made in 1920 in full dress ivory, & horn handled kothimara hanshee for leading members of the ruling jats of Nepal, kings, premiers etc..

Although I am equaly as sure that many of the plainer wood handled ones are pre 1860 having studied the Nepal national museam collection.


So unfortuanatly if people wish to use authentic terminology instead of the inaccurace terms that have developed Hatrayadha Sirupate & Doharohat Sirupate are the true terms used for the various handle lengths, with various qualifications due to blade shape to truly define them.

All comments welcome.

Spiral

The true Hansiya.....{Hanshee{sic.}} {two of many shapes & versian we saw.}

Feel free to copy & use if you so wish but please include proper acknowedgment.

copywrite Spiral{JRS} 2005

[Tim Simmons]

Hello very interesting,I did suspect these were collectors names.Here in the UK anything a bit like a Kukri and coming from N Indian or Nepal is called a kukri.Tim

[sirupate]

Excellent report Spiral and nice pics, Cheers Simon

[tom hyle]

much thanks.

[inveterate]

Excellent report Spiral, nice to see more information on the mystique surrounding these blades. Rod

[spiral]

Cheers Guys! Can you see the look in the dogs eyes? He wanted to bite me!

Spiral

[JPSF]

This is great stuff from Simon & Jonathon. As we have been writing directly I want to thank them for not just hearing one thing and taking it as fact. Multiple sources are invaluable especially when they agree!
In all my research I would hear different things from the same Nepali family members, museum experts, even anthropologists from the British Museum vs the British Library.

I am hoping the sources were beyond verbal in some cases and there is documentation and more paintings similar to what Simon showed.

More please!

[spiral]

John thank you for your honest words, To quote the knife expert Bernard Levine

" I don't cling to comfortable familiar errors, mine or anyone else's.

I don't mistake my imagination for an information source.

I always prefer primary sources to derivative works, but even original documents contain errors.

Every knife is what it is. No one's opinion can change that. Not even everyone's opinion can change that.

I know what I know.
I know what I don't know.
I know the difference.
When I guess, I say so, and say why.

Being book-learned about knives is like being book-learned about anything else: a guarantee of sophmoric pomposity and public absurdity. One learns knives by studying knives. Real world knowledge enables critical reading. Reading without experience leads to confusion and foot in mouth and embarsement"
.................................................. ..........................

Most of these kukri have original spine inscriptions in the manner of the mainly post 1902 so called Longleaf kukris from Atlanta cutlery. I think thats a pretty good primary source myself.

Cheers.

Spiral

[tom hyle]

Good quote there, though the "imagination" (a cultural construct including, perhaps even primarily, what most cultures, less fascinated with concepts of individuality and of material proof [experiential proof often being considered more important], have considered to be outside influences and images from collective consciousness and nonhuman/nonliving spirits) certainly is a source of information; much of it which ends up being very rewarding, useful, and proving true, depending, perhaps, on what kind of spirits one hangs out with.....and is that the "blacksmits don't make knives guy?"
Here I kind of like the actual hanshee, too.
At least you were not in Tibet; they grow some big pups up there, and from what I hear it's only safe to walk around armed; often with several good throwing rocks, though in all native actuality, I still sometimes see rural people wearing swords while herding in photos.

[Conogre]

Excellent points all the way around and very well written.
One thing that seems universal with modern "westerners" is the compulsion to pigeonhole everything into minute and exact categories, when no such distinction was ever made or intended by the original peoples.
In biology, it's even more rampant, with many taxonomists writing doctoral thesis that, years later, end up being, literally, nonsense, while that same information is eagerly taken to heart by pseudo experts and purists who HAVE to split hairs, ad infinitum.
Many "eastern" dogs instinctively dislike people from western cultures, I suspect, because of our diet.
In SE Asia, many years ago, US soldiers were often heard making comments about the fishy "smell" of the locals, while in conversation after conversation I kept hearing that WE smelled like rotten meat.
If so, that's BOUND to get a reaction out of a semi-ferel dog used to scavenging scraps! **grin**.
Mike

[spiral]

Hi Tom, Much as I like the BL quote that I use, I must admit he is quite a charachter who makes some intresting statements on occasion.

I do aspire to follow parts of his above quote though, both with kukri & in other walks of my life.


Thank you Conogre, very well said in my opinion!

As for the dog, yep I am glad it wasnt a Tibetan mastif & i did eat so much Black pig pork in Nepal ,I am sure I smelt like a rotten black pig!

It certainly wasnt the type of village tourists or treckers would normaly go to either.

To Follow the BL qoute,& Conogres accurate conlclusian of the western need to pigeon hole & JPs statement about different Nepalis saying different things & having re read my post,

I should add, for the sake of accuracy & clarification that the term Lamebendh Sirupate {long handle sirupate.} was also intialy used by our sources, not just Sirupate, before we got into the differention of the different grip lengths .

So that actualy the usual term according to our sources for the "Hanshee is "Lamebendh Sirupate " {sorry for lack of previous clarity, ill blame the Jet lag }

I am also confident that other terminology may be used that we havent yet heard. There are many minor local languages,amongst the tribes & castes in Nepal after all.

But we used the main Gurkali or Nepali language, which after all is the main language of Nepal & the offcial one.

Spiral

[Rick]

I'm afraid this phenomenon is universal . When my Son walked across Europe last year he ran into the same unfriendly dog phenomenon .
He and his friends quickly discovered that the simple act of bending over to pick up a stone would cause an immediate retreat by the offending canid .
They never had to throw the stone , the very act of picking one up was enough .

[spiral]

Well Rick most of the dogs in Nepal have lots of scars on thier heads that look like stick & stone scars to me.

Actualy when the dog charged in I just stood my ground & barked & growled at it, which seemed to confuse & concern it, much to the delight of the local villagers.

Guess I can do a good mad dog immpresion!

Spiral

[Rick]

I'm very good at that myself !
You should see me foam at the mouth .

[spiral]

Cool! theres a few of us about!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by spiral

Cool! theres a few of us about!

Ditto. They don't speak human, so you have to speak their language. I have found that it works a lot better than "shoo," or "nice doggy."

[spiral]

Indeed Mark, thats the secret of all communication to all people & animals I guess.

Talk the language they understand.