small twist core moro kris ?

[tom22]

Hi Firstly id like to introduce myself as im new to this forum , my name is tom and i like allsorts of weapons from african/pacific island clubs to swords from around the world etc etc,
My newest purchase is this very small moro kris sword , ive been after one of these for years and liked the twist core blade , my knowledge is very limited but i believe is quite an old one , i have only given it a gentle clean with wire wool and oil to remove the surface rust , i darnt over clean it as i guess this could devalue it ? anyway i will interested to see what you guys think about it ,
Thanks

[Ian]

Hi Tom. Welcome to the forum.

Very nice old Moro kris. Within the culture it was common to polish kris and etch them to show the pattern. This is still done today. I suspect that this one will show a lot of pattern if etched.

Regards,

Ian

[tom22]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Tom. Welcome to the forum.

Very nice old Moro kris. Within the culture it was common to polish kris and etch them to show the pattern. This is still done today. I suspect that this one will show a lot of pattern if etched.

Regards,

Ian

Hi Ian , Thanks for your welcome and accepting me in this forum ,
I have just looked up how to etch blades and i would be a bit nervous how to exactly go about it , Is it advisable to sand down a blade like this , or is there a way of lightly etching it maybe ? also i wondered that this is such a small blade could it be for a youngster as the wole sword only measures 53cm and is very dainty , i can oly manage to grip the hilt with three fingers ,though i do have big hands

[Lee]

I think it is lovely just as it is. If you sand it, you may change the pattern.

[tom22]

Originally Posted by Lee

I think it is lovely just as it is. If you sand it, you may change the pattern.

Hi yes , this is my concern , im quite happy with how it looks now , think i will leave it alone for now

[kino]

You got a beauty there. 3 waved Kris blades are hard to come by and to have it be a twist core, impossible for me.
What’s the blade length?
It it were mine, I would clean it up a bit and apply a coat of Ren wax and enjoy.

[tom22]

Originally Posted by kino

You got a beauty there. 3 waved Kris blades are hard to come by and to have it be a twist core, impossible for me.
What’s the blade length?
It it were mine, I would clean it up a bit and apply a coat of Ren wax and enjoy.

Thanks for your info and advice , its very small and only measures 53 cm in total

[ariel]

It looks very similar to Charles’ damascus barong discussed here recently. Twist core wall to wall.

[tom22]

Just to say the pommel is made from ivory though the patination made it look like a dark wood , one side is darker than the other , i have added a couple of pics

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by tom22

Just to say the pommel is made from ivory though the patination made it look like a dark wood , one side is darker than the other , i have added a couple of pics

Great piece! Just not entirely sure if the pommel is ivory or bone. But either way, a 3-wave twistcore with that silver hilt wrap is just top tier!

[Battara]

What a wonderful example!

The blade looks Sulu to me and the patina and pattern on the pommel does look to be ivory to me.

[David]

Originally Posted by tom22

Hi Ian , Thanks for your welcome and accepting me in this forum ,
I have just looked up how to etch blades and i would be a bit nervous how to exactly go about it , Is it advisable to sand down a blade like this , or is there a way of lightly etching it maybe ?

Beautiful "archaic" style kris.
I don't know what you found when you looked up how to etch blades, but generally the etch done on Moro blades is a light etch. When i have done this i have used vinegar, which acts slowly and relatively gently. As advised, i would certainly not sand the blade in any way. You don't want to remove the topography that currently exists on the blade. But if you were to etch in in vinegar you could use a toothbrush to work along the blade. Even more fine grades of steel wool would help to clean our crevices before etching without removing any steel or wearing down the surface. A good cleaning and light etch will indeed make this pattern pop better. But if there is no rust and you are happy with the current look i think that is also fine.
I agree with Jean that this pommel is definitely old ivory, not bone. while the hilt and pommel are probably more recent than the blade i think this hilt might be a bit older than originally suspected when it first appeared to be wood.
Have you been able to identify the material of the ferrule? Is it actually silver of some other white metal?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful "archaic" style kris.
I don't know what you found when you looked up how to etch blades, but generally the etch done on Moro blades is a light etch. When i have done this i have used vinegar, which acts slowly and relatively gently. As advised, i would certainly not sand the blade in any way. You don't want to remove the topography that currently exists on the blade. But if you were to etch in in vinegar you could use a toothbrush to work along the blade. Even more fine grades of steel wool would help to clean our crevices before etching without removing any steel or wearing down the surface. A good cleaning and light etch will indeed make this pattern pop better. But if there is no rust and you are happy with the current look i think that is also fine.
I agree with Jean that this pommel is definitely old ivory, not bone. while the hilt and pommel are probably more recent than the blade i think this hilt might be a bit older than originally suspected when it first appeared to be wood.
Have you been able to identify the material of the ferrule? Is it actually silver of some other white metal?

Agreed on the etch part- that's how I've been etching Moro blades recently. When I had my first few antiques, I made the mistake of doing sandpaper and FeCl etch; nowadays I realize just fine steel wool and vinegar dip brings out the pattern that the original makers intended. Non-indigenous etchants produce results that aren't really "traditional" but still pretty nevertheless.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Agreed on the etch part- that's how I've been etching Moro blades recently. When I had my first few antiques, I made the mistake of doing sandpaper and FeCl etch; nowadays I realize just fine steel wool and vinegar dip brings out the pattern that the original makers intended. Non-indigenous etchants produce results that aren't really "traditional" but still pretty nevertheless.

I also must say that i have tried to search out old images of Moro warriors with their kris blades exposed and while i may have seen a couple that look like they may have been darkened with etchants i am not convinced this was actually the common practice back in the day. But frankly it is difficult to discern from old black & white photos whether blades have been darkened or not. I do understand why collectors like to see the patterns in laminated and twisted core blades more clearly, but i have not read anything that confirms this was the practice amongst the Moro tribes themselves. While i understand that the practice of staining blades with warangan became accepted in Java, Bali, Madura and Sumatra, given the multitude of pamor patterns and the spiritual and cultural significance of these different patterns, it does make sense why many Indonesian keris get such treatment. But as far as i know the same status for different patterns does not exist in Moro culture. Can anyone point to old accounts about Moro kris that speak with certainty to the darkening of blades with etchants?

[tom22]

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful "archaic" style kris.
I don't know what you found when you looked up how to etch blades, but generally the etch done on Moro blades is a light etch. When i have done this i have used vinegar, which acts slowly and relatively gently. As advised, i would certainly not sand the blade in any way. You don't want to remove the topography that currently exists on the blade. But if you were to etch in in vinegar you could use a toothbrush to work along the blade. Even more fine grades of steel wool would help to clean our crevices before etching without removing any steel or wearing down the surface. A good cleaning and light etch will indeed make this pattern pop better. But if there is no rust and you are happy with the current look i think that is also fine.
I agree with Jean that this pommel is definitely old ivory, not bone. while the hilt and pommel are probably more recent than the blade i think this hilt might be a bit older than originally suspected when it first appeared to be wood.
Have you been able to identify the material of the ferrule? Is it actually silver of some other white metal?

Hi David ,Thanks for your information and advice, Most etching techniques ive seen involved sanding the blade down to bright steel and then etching with vinegar or citrus juice to bring out the pattern , I quite like how it looks as it is , all ive done is use soft wire wool and oil to remove the red powdery rust and then cleaned the blade with rubbing alcohol , ive also applied a coat of ren wax ,
I believe the ferrule is silver , it was very black in colour and so i used some metal polish which shone it up

[Gustav]

David,

I would say, staining blades dark most probably didn't had the importance like on Java and Bali, but there are blades which retain old staining. I have posted somewhere a kris from Munich, collected in 19th cent., with silver inlays, stained pitch black. It surely makes more sense to stain blades with inlays then ones with already visible topographically etched twisted bar pattern.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I also must say that i have tried to search out old images of Moro warriors with their kris blades exposed and while i may have seen a couple that look like they may have been darkened with etchants i am not convinced this was actually the common practice back in the day. But frankly it is difficult to discern from old black & white photos whether blades have been darkened or not. I do understand why collectors like to see the patterns in laminated and twisted core blades more clearly, but i have not read anything that confirms this was the practice amongst the Moro tribes themselves. While i understand that the practice of staining blades with warangan became accepted in Java, Bali, Madura and Sumatra, given the multitude of pamor patterns and the spiritual and cultural significance of these different patterns, it does make sense why many Indonesian keris get such treatment. But as far as i know the same status for different patterns does not exist in Moro culture. Can anyone point to old accounts about Moro kris that speak with certainty to the darkening of blades with etchants?

I've seen about 2 pics of Moro warriors rubbing fruit on their barungs, I'll try to search for them again. Etching was also mentioned in 2 references; in one, it was described how the blade was buried in pipes filled with acidic fruit to darken the blade and bring out the laminations. I've forgotten the name of this reference, but in the meantime here's relevant passages from Cato (1996):

"Acidic chemical agents, such as various indigenous citrus fruits, were used on the blade right after completion, and in later cleaning. These substances darkened the overall surface of the blade, while at the same time, highlighting the layers of various metals within it."

"The Moros were quite content with the darkened appearance of these lamination patterns...it was because of this, that the Moro warrior could better maintain his stealth in the bush..."

"Most of the krises, barungs and kampilans found today in the US were brought here...by American veterans...many of these new owners set about the task of bringing their war relics to the requisite brightness that most Westerners admire. This probably explains why the beautiful designs which were produced by the Moro pattern welding process are so often obscured."

[kino]

Here’s a kris with a darkened blade.
Awhile back Battara posted a photo of a man wielding a Jungayan (sp), Kris with a dark blade.

[Sajen]

Hello Tom,

Welcome to the forum!

You have a very nice archaic kris there, I agree with Jose that the pommel is ivory and I doubt that etching will bring out the pattern more, I just would clean the blade a little bit more with steel wool.

Regards,
Detlef

[tom22]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Tom,

Welcome to the forum!

You have a very nice archaic kris there, I agree with Jose that the pommel is ivory and I doubt that etching will bring out the pattern more, I just would clean the blade a little bit more with steel wool.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi thanks for your welcome ,
Yes i think your right just a little clean up will do ,
I will then hang it up and enjoy it , better than watching tv !
regards
tom

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by tom22

Hi thanks for your welcome ,
Yes i think your right just a little clean up will do ,
I will then hang it up and enjoy it , better than watching tv!

Agree complete with you!

Regards,
Detlef