Genoui???

ariel · 26th March 2008, 02:19 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=002
In general, looks North African to me.
Agree?

Gavin Nugent · 26th March 2008, 12:23 PM

Yes I'd agree, I would guess Moroccan, it has a very Spanish Moorish look to it.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2008, 06:28 PM

This 'old Arabian/Persian/Turkish/kindjhal/knife/dagger/sword' ( I love these eloquent and ever so accurate ebay descriptions!!!

does appear to be from North Africa, and I agree with Gav, the elaborate decoration does suggest Moorish Spain's traditional 'Boabdil' type motif.
The crescents, and the use of turquoise and corals seem to suggest Ottoman occupied Maghreb, so this elaborate form koummya (?) might be from many places in a wide scope of the North African coast.

This does seem to have some age, and the pierced design in the blade is most interesting, and recalls such affectations in early rapier blades. I have forgotten where I have seen the term 'Genouii' used as Ariel has noted, but it seems it was typically applied to imported European blades in North Africa (most often Italian- hence, Genoa=Genouii), but am not sure if it was used restrictively in any way.
I am of course not suggesting this is in any way a rapier blade

only noting the association to them by the piercing.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 26th March 2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This 'old Arabian/Persian/Turkish/kindjhal/knife/dagger/sword' ( I love these eloquent and ever so accurate ebay descriptions!!!

does appear to be from North Africa, and I agree with Gav, the elaborate decoration does suggest Moorish Spain's traditional 'Boabdil' type motif.
The crescents, and the use of turquoise and corals seem to suggest Ottoman occupied Maghreb, so this elaborate form koummya (?) might be from many places in a wide scope of the North African coast.

This does seem to have some age, and the pierced design in the blade is most interesting, and recalls such affectations in early rapier blades. I have forgotten where I have seen the term 'Genouii' used as Ariel has noted, but it seems it was typically applied to imported European blades in North Africa (most often Italian- hence, Genoa=Genouii), but am not sure if it was used restrictively in any way.
I am of course not suggesting this is in any way a rapier blade

only noting the association to them by the piercing.

Best regards,
Jim

My understanding is that the term applies not exclusively to the daggers utilizing European blades but also ( broader!) to daggers with straight, rather than curved blades.
Am I wrong?

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My understanding is that the term applies not exclusively to the daggers utilizing European blades but also ( broader!) to daggers with straight, rather than curved blades.
Am I wrong?

No, I dont think you're wrong Ariel, and what you're saying sounds very familiar, and its driving me nuts trying to remember where I've seen that term. I think it might have been in Buttin's article on the s'boula but I cant locate my copy yet. If my memory serves, the term does apply with reference to the dagger blades, but more to the form than to the blade actually being European.

Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 26th March 2008, 11:31 PM

poor quality Wire filigree & stone work of dubious "stone" I usauly think of 1950s or more recent when it occors in Nepali or Indian work,{or even Yemini for that matter after most of the Jewish silversmiths left.] is it different in North Africa?

Spiral

Yannis · 26th March 2008, 11:41 PM

IMHO only the blade is old. The rest is a late 20th century bazaar fitting

spiral · 26th March 2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

IMHO only the blade is old. The rest is a late 20th century bazaar fitting

Yes I think your probably right Yannis.

Spiral

BerberDagger · 26th March 2008, 11:51 PM

Hi,
I see much of tis dagger, and i ve some on my collection...it is Moroccan ...probably early XX century with more old blade (probably from european sword or bayonet)

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2008, 01:34 AM

I'm with Yannis, the blade does seem old, and I'm intrigued by that openwork. I'm still puzzled by the term 'genouii'.......can anybody offer any insight to where this term appears in reference to these daggers? I thought perhaps Buttin's work, but no luck there. Then thought possibly 'Alain Jacob's book but don't have access to a copy.

The modern attribution to the mounts seems right too.

Dom · 27th March 2008, 01:51 AM

on the handle I found a date 1349 --> 1930

but, in my point of view it's the only thing arabic on that assembly
since I'm turning in Maghreb it's the first time I saw a similar dagger

à +

Dom

Marc · 27th March 2008, 11:11 AM

The blade is probably from an "albacete" dagger, that often featured that kind of decoration and these cutouts, normally filled with brass. There's been discussion about these daggers before, look for example HERE, or HERE. These were profusely made through the whole of the 19th c. and beggining of the 20th, so the date in the handle is perfectly coherent.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2008, 04:46 AM

Right on Marc! That would confirm the Moorish Spain influence imbued here that Gav suggested for the dagger overall.
This piece then would seem to at least reflect influence of the Albacete blades, whether or not the blade was actually made there. That openwork for placement of brass fill is most interesting, was it a feature distinct to Albacete only?

My quest for the source of the 'genouii' term Ariel used in opening this post has played havoc with my insomnia!

and fortunately a very good friend from Germany who is extremely knowledgeable in these weapons has given me some information that might help.

My friend has mentioned that the term 'djenoui' (also genoua; janwi) is a general reference in North Africa to imported blades, and is often applied to the form of koummya with straight blade termed s'boula in Morocco. The term carries further in Berber dialects to the Kabyles where it may even apply to the yataghan (also utagen;atayan;ajennwi; djenoui). Naturally the original reference to 'Genoa' for the early tradition of trade blades and weapons became broadened, as described. I just thought it might be interest to others collecting weapons from these regions.

The term 'djenoui' then, seems to be applied generally in Berber regions to imported blades (or perhaps of foreign style) much in the sense that 'firangi' is applied to swords with foreign blades in India. The term itself does not differentiate between straight and curved blades, however in Morocco the 'sboula' =straight blade; the 'shula' = curved.

I do not have my copy of Tirri handy, but perhaps he might have used the term in his captions on Maghreb daggers?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2008, 02:38 AM

I found my copy of 'Tirri' and found a very similar straight blade dagger is shown in fig.12 on p.31, and is termed 'janwi'.
Further noted, "... the name 'janwi' is thought to be a corruption of 'Genoa'from where the straight form of blade was introduced".
While I mentioned I had heard this or similar term before, it was as noted from my friend in Germany and predates the Tirri reference, and I was hoping to learn where the term used by Ariel had originated.

I had forgotten what an outstanding resource this book is, and while there have been relatively minor criticisms (as always) this book is incredibly comprehensive, beautifully photographed, and a fantastic identification guide for collectors.

The book I found the information in is:
"Islamic Weapons:Maghreb to Moghul" , Anthony C. Tirri, 2003.

26th March 2008, 02:19 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Genoui??? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=002 In general, looks North African to me. Agree?

26th March 2008, 12:23 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My 2 cents worth Yes I'd agree, I would guess Moroccan, it has a very Spanish Moorish look to it. Gav

26th March 2008, 06:28 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This 'old Arabian/Persian/Turkish/kindjhal/knife/dagger/sword' ( I love these eloquent and ever so accurate ebay descriptions!!! does appear to be from North Africa, and I agree with Gav, the elaborate decoration does suggest Moorish Spain's traditional 'Boabdil' type motif. The crescents, and the use of turquoise and corals seem to suggest Ottoman occupied Maghreb, so this elaborate form koummya (?) might be from many places in a wide scope of the North African coast. This does seem to have some age, and the pierced design in the blade is most interesting, and recalls such affectations in early rapier blades. I have forgotten where I have seen the term 'Genouii' used as Ariel has noted, but it seems it was typically applied to imported European blades in North Africa (most often Italian- hence, Genoa=Genouii), but am not sure if it was used restrictively in any way. I am of course not suggesting this is in any way a rapier blade only noting the association to them by the piercing. Best regards, Jim

26th March 2008, 11:31 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	poor quality Wire filigree & stone work of dubious "stone" I usauly think of 1950s or more recent when it occors in Nepali or Indian work,{or even Yemini for that matter after most of the Jewish silversmiths left.] is it different in North Africa? Spiral

26th March 2008, 11:41 PM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	IMHO only the blade is old. The rest is a late 20th century bazaar fitting

26th March 2008, 11:51 PM	#9
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Hi, I see much of tis dagger, and i ve some on my collection...it is Moroccan ...probably early XX century with more old blade (probably from european sword or bayonet)

27th March 2008, 01:34 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I'm with Yannis, the blade does seem old, and I'm intrigued by that openwork. I'm still puzzled by the term 'genouii'.......can anybody offer any insight to where this term appears in reference to these daggers? I thought perhaps Buttin's work, but no luck there. Then thought possibly 'Alain Jacob's book but don't have access to a copy. The modern attribution to the mounts seems right too.

27th March 2008, 01:51 AM	#11
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	on the handle I found a date 1349 --> 1930 but, in my point of view it's the only thing arabic on that assembly since I'm turning in Maghreb it's the first time I saw a similar dagger à + Dom

27th March 2008, 11:11 AM	#12
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The blade is probably from an "albacete" dagger, that often featured that kind of decoration and these cutouts, normally filled with brass. There's been discussion about these daggers before, look for example HERE, or HERE. These were profusely made through the whole of the 19th c. and beggining of the 20th, so the date in the handle is perfectly coherent.

28th March 2008, 04:46 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Right on Marc! That would confirm the Moorish Spain influence imbued here that Gav suggested for the dagger overall. This piece then would seem to at least reflect influence of the Albacete blades, whether or not the blade was actually made there. That openwork for placement of brass fill is most interesting, was it a feature distinct to Albacete only? My quest for the source of the 'genouii' term Ariel used in opening this post has played havoc with my insomnia! and fortunately a very good friend from Germany who is extremely knowledgeable in these weapons has given me some information that might help. My friend has mentioned that the term 'djenoui' (also genoua; janwi) is a general reference in North Africa to imported blades, and is often applied to the form of koummya with straight blade termed s'boula in Morocco. The term carries further in Berber dialects to the Kabyles where it may even apply to the yataghan (also utagen;atayan;ajennwi; djenoui). Naturally the original reference to 'Genoa' for the early tradition of trade blades and weapons became broadened, as described. I just thought it might be interest to others collecting weapons from these regions. The term 'djenoui' then, seems to be applied generally in Berber regions to imported blades (or perhaps of foreign style) much in the sense that 'firangi' is applied to swords with foreign blades in India. The term itself does not differentiate between straight and curved blades, however in Morocco the 'sboula' =straight blade; the 'shula' = curved. I do not have my copy of Tirri handy, but perhaps he might have used the term in his captions on Maghreb daggers? All best regards, Jim

30th March 2008, 02:38 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I found my copy of 'Tirri' and found a very similar straight blade dagger is shown in fig.12 on p.31, and is termed 'janwi'. Further noted, "... the name 'janwi' is thought to be a corruption of 'Genoa'from where the straight form of blade was introduced". While I mentioned I had heard this or similar term before, it was as noted from my friend in Germany and predates the Tirri reference, and I was hoping to learn where the term used by Ariel had originated. I had forgotten what an outstanding resource this book is, and while there have been relatively minor criticisms (as always) this book is incredibly comprehensive, beautifully photographed, and a fantastic identification guide for collectors. The book I found the information in is: "Islamic Weapons:Maghreb to Moghul" , Anthony C. Tirri, 2003.