Another one I've had for 20+ years

Ian · 28th January 2023, 04:12 AM

According to my notes, I acquired this keris in the late 1990s. What interested me was the karaton designation, and the sharply defined pamor which appealed at the time.There is an old tag on the back of the scabbard that says keris karaton pamekasan (?) ...

I'm interested to learn more about this one.

.

jagabuwana · 28th January 2023, 05:53 AM

Nice keris, Ian.
If it were me, I'd take a look at the silhouette of the gonjo looking at it from top down, to see if it would support a Tuban classification.

JustYS · 28th January 2023, 06:09 AM

Hi Ian,

Keraton Pamekasan refers to Madura court

Pamor kulit semangka = pamor watermelon skin

Tilam upe might refer to the dhapur (form) of the keris. In Java it would be called Tilam Upih. However normally dhapur Tilam Upih would have a tikel alis, which I do not see here. Without tikel alis then the dhapur would be called Brojol.

rasdan · 28th January 2023, 08:36 AM

Hi Ian,

I am not sure. But every time I see a straight keris with broad pamor and coarse iron like that I intuitively think of Madura. Because a lot of Madurese keris with luks have similar pamor style and iron. Or maybe we can just call it East Java to be safe - because Madura is geographically in East Java.

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2023, 12:25 PM

Nothing much to add to what has already been wriiten, just a few comments:-

1) I doubt that Pamekesan ever had a kraton, its status is as a Kabupaten, a regency, I'm not all that familiar with the history of Pamekasan, but I believe that it never had a Sultan, nor a Sunan, it was always under the ultimate control of Sumenep, which was a Sultanate. It might have had an Istana, ie, palace, where the Bupati (regent) lived, but if no Sultan or Sunan, it could not have had a Kraton.

2) dress is Central Jawa, Solo style

3) not tilam upih, but as YS has said, brojol

4) the "upe" spelling is perfectly understandable, a non-native speaker hearing the word could easily give it that spelling, as could a poorly educated native speaker --- I get emails frequently from several people in Solo who left school before they entered high school, and writing in both Javanese & BI their spellings sometimes do take a bit of effort to understand.

5) I'm of a like mind with Rasdan on blade origin, I would give this blade as Madura without a second though --- if I did have a second thought I might give it as East Jawa, thus including Madura, but throwing the net wider. Pamor ngulit semangko --- kulit semangka --- and a couple of other alternate spellings.

Edit

I think you might be right about Tuban Jaga, that gonjo looks very much like it could be nguceng mati.

David · 28th January 2023, 03:48 PM

I don't have much to add here either, except to say that i find it to be an attractive keris. Can you show us a photo from above showing the fit to the sheath. I am curious to know if this East Jawa blade Solo sheath was made specifically for this blade. Thanks!

28th January 2023, 04:12 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Another one I've had for 20+ years According to my notes, I acquired this keris in the late 1990s. What interested me was the karaton designation, and the sharply defined pamor which appealed at the time.There is an old tag on the back of the scabbard that says keris karaton pamekasan (?) ... I'm interested to learn more about this one. . Attached Images

28th January 2023, 05:53 AM	#2
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 281	Nice keris, Ian. If it were me, I'd take a look at the silhouette of the gonjo looking at it from top down, to see if it would support a Tuban classification. Last edited by jagabuwana; 28th January 2023 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Brain fart

28th January 2023, 08:36 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Ian, I am not sure. But every time I see a straight keris with broad pamor and coarse iron like that I intuitively think of Madura. Because a lot of Madurese keris with luks have similar pamor style and iron. Or maybe we can just call it East Java to be safe - because Madura is geographically in East Java. Last edited by rasdan; 28th January 2023 at 01:31 PM. Reason: spelling

28th January 2023, 12:25 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Nothing much to add to what has already been wriiten, just a few comments:- 1) I doubt that Pamekesan ever had a kraton, its status is as a Kabupaten, a regency, I'm not all that familiar with the history of Pamekasan, but I believe that it never had a Sultan, nor a Sunan, it was always under the ultimate control of Sumenep, which was a Sultanate. It might have had an Istana, ie, palace, where the Bupati (regent) lived, but if no Sultan or Sunan, it could not have had a Kraton. 2) dress is Central Jawa, Solo style 3) not tilam upih, but as YS has said, brojol 4) the "upe" spelling is perfectly understandable, a non-native speaker hearing the word could easily give it that spelling, as could a poorly educated native speaker --- I get emails frequently from several people in Solo who left school before they entered high school, and writing in both Javanese & BI their spellings sometimes do take a bit of effort to understand. 5) I'm of a like mind with Rasdan on blade origin, I would give this blade as Madura without a second though --- if I did have a second thought I might give it as East Jawa, thus including Madura, but throwing the net wider. Pamor ngulit semangko --- kulit semangka --- and a couple of other alternate spellings. Edit I think you might be right about Tuban Jaga, that gonjo looks very much like it could be nguceng mati. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 28th January 2023 at 08:05 PM. Reason: The Third Thought

28th January 2023, 06:09 AM	#3
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Hi Ian, Keraton Pamekasan refers to Madura court Pamor kulit semangka = pamor watermelon skin Tilam upe might refer to the dhapur (form) of the keris. In Java it would be called Tilam Upih. However normally dhapur Tilam Upih would have a tikel alis, which I do not see here. Without tikel alis then the dhapur would be called Brojol.

28th January 2023, 03:48 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I don't have much to add here either, except to say that i find it to be an attractive keris. Can you show us a photo from above showing the fit to the sheath. I am curious to know if this East Jawa blade Solo sheath was made specifically for this blade. Thanks!