Later-era saber kris for comment

[xasterix]

Hello, would just like to check if anyone in the forum has a provenanced sample of this particular saber kris type. I believe this iteration was made later on (WW2 era to even postWW2). It is monosteel, and the construction of the blade is mono (no separate gangya). I'm inclined to think this was made in Mindanao.

When I got it, I realized the detached hilt and asang-asang didn't belong to the kris, but probably sourced from another. The tang and clamp attachment cannot fit into the hilt, and the discrepancy is so large that I'm inclined to think the non-fit is NOT due to shrinkage. I decided to have a modern Maranao hilt made, and attached a vintage brass ferrule that I got from a dilapidated Maranao kris. I didn't attach an asang-asang anymore because it was mono-construction anyway, and the carved art extends into the "vacant" area for the clamp.

The blade measures 21in, and it's springy (as I expected monosteel to be) and heavy. I think this is definitely a battle kris, and not simply for adornment.

TIA for your comments!

[David]

Interesting kris. I think this is well past the WWII era. Probably 1950-60s.
While i have no doubt it would make a handy weapon and all kinds of fighting has taken place in the Philippines since WWII i'm not sure i would classify this as a "battle kris". Doesn't mean it never saw action though.

[Rick]

I have a kris with decoration like this; I'd love to know what decade these embellishments became popular and whether they were used within the culture or just for the souvenir trade.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

Interesting kris. I think this is well past the WWII era. Probably 1950-60s.
While i have no doubt it would make a handy weapon and all kinds of fighting has taken place in the Philippines since WWII i'm not sure i would classify this as a "battle kris". Doesn't mean it never saw action though.

Thanks for the assessment sir!

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Rick

I have a kris with decoration like this; I'd love to know what decade these embellishments became popular and whether they were used within the culture or just for the souvenir trade.

Same thoughts sir! I'll try backtracking on similarly-engraved items on Worthpoint...hopefully one of those would have provenance.

[Ian]

i also have a regular kris blade with the same decoration and without a hilt. I had a panabas blade also with this decoration, and I think I've seen a Moro spear head also with the same style of incised decoration.

I agree with David, probably mid-20th C (1950s, 1960s).

The metal from which my kris is constructed is a light color and appeared "soft" from the manner in which it had been incised. That made me wonder whether it was aluminum or an alloy.

The okir on mine reminds me of Maranao work.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

i also have a regular kris blade with the same decoration and without a hilt. I had a panabas blade also with this decoration, and I think I've seen a Moro spear head also with the same style of incised decoration.

I agree with David, probably mid-20th C (1950s, 1960s).

The metal from which my kris is constructed is a light color and appeared "soft" from the manner in which it had been incised. That made me wonder whether it was aluminum or an alloy.

The okir on mine reminds me of Maranao work.

Thanks for this data Ian! I agree that the origin of such engraved blades is likely a Maranao or Maguindanao area. Mine is also "soft" but retains an edge pretty well; when I etched it, it turned dark all over, so I was guessing it was at least mono-hardened.

[drac2k]

This question often comes up and while I can not comment on your blade, this style of engraving has been around since at least prior to 1926(see enclosed "Krieger 1926 Philippine Ethnic Weapons Plate 7.png). I have seen pictures of similarly engraved captured weapons by General Pershing from the Smithsonian, so I'm guessing this mode of design could go back to the early 1900's or before.

[David]

Originally Posted by drac2k

This question often comes up and while I can not comment on your blade, this style of engraving has been around since at least prior to 1926(see enclosed "Krieger 1926 Philippine Ethnic Weapons Plate 7.png). I have seen pictures of similarly engraved captured weapons by General Pershing from the Smithsonian, so I'm guessing this mode of design could go back to the early 1900's or before.

I don't think there is any question of Moro blades being engraved on the blades dating back to the early 1900s, but i am afraid that the illustration you have presented does not really show well enough if it is done in the same style. But we have to look at more than just similar motifs, since okir patterns are traditional and are used over long periods of time. We need to look at execution and think about what tools might have made the engraving. To my eye the engravings on this keris look machine made rather than hand incised. And there is not separate gangya, which also hints put at a particular timeline, even though there were some old exceptions to that rule. I still feel comfortable dating this to the 1950s-60s.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I don't think there is any question of Moro blades being engraved on the blades dating back to the early 1900s, but i am afraid that the illustration you have presented does not really show well enough if it is done in the same style. But we have to look at more than just similar motifs, since okir patterns are traditional and are used over long periods of time. We need to look at execution and think about what tools might have made the engraving. To my eye the engravings on this keris look machine made rather than hand incised. And there is not separate gangya, which also hints put at a particular timeline, even though there were some old exceptions to that rule. I still feel comfortable dating this to the 1950s-60s.

I think drac2k has an engraved panabas sample corresponding (or rather close to) the Krieger plate here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20194

Looking at it closely...the engraving reminds me of my kris. Hmmm.

To my current knowledge, the Maranao people only started using machines for any blade-related operations post-1980s already.

[RobT]

xasterix,

In your initial post in this thread you wrote, "I didn't attach an asang-asang anymore because it was mono-construction anyway, and the carved art extends into the 'vacant' area for the clamp." I believe that the asang-asang (asang-asangs when there are two) is intended as additional support/shock absorption to prevent the tang from torquing in the hilt when a blow is struck. As such, whether the blade is mono construction or not is irrelevant. Just my two cents but, were the sword mine, I would replace the asang-asang even though it covers up part of the engraving.

Sincerely,
RobT

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by RobT

xasterix,

In your initial post in this thread you wrote, "I didn't attach an asang-asang anymore because it was mono-construction anyway, and the carved art extends into the 'vacant' area for the clamp." I believe that the asang-asang (asang-asangs when there are two) is intended as additional support/shock absorption to prevent the tang from torquing in the hilt when a blow is struck. As such, whether the blade is mono construction or not is irrelevant. Just my two cents but, were the sword mine, I would replace the asang-asang even though it covers up part of the engraving.

Sincerely,
RobT

Good point Rob, that's indeed among the original purposes of the asang-asang. I'm planning to install an unattached one (minus the clamp extension, since the hilt cavity and ferrule are epoxied already) in the future to complete the "look" at least.

[Rick]

I don't think I've seen any examples of these decorated Moro swords that wouldn't be fit to use in a combat situation.
Not to say that these were or were not made with an eye for sales to world travelers.
They are certainly well made and quite functional for something that may be intended for sale outside the culture.

[drac2k]

As an after mention, the heading under the plate read "No.1 Straight-edged steel kampilan captured by the expedition under Capt. J.J. Pershing,1903, Moro, Lake Lanao, Mindanao."
Once again, I am note knowledgeable enough to comment on the age of this featured sword, but it does show that this type of engraving was done at least back to 1903 and if this was indeed a captured item, it wasn't done merely as a tourist item embellishment.

[xasterix]

Dear Drac and Rick:

Thanks for the additional comments! Will definitely consider these data.

[RobT]

Hi All,

I went back and forth for an entire day before finally deciding to make this post. I really don't like to get up on a soapbox and I sincerely hope no one is offended but the mention in this thread of a hilt epoxied in place made my skin crawl. Normally, I would preface my remarks with "in my opinion" but in this case I will say without the slightest equivocation that components of antique or collectible weapons should never be affixed by any method or with any substance that would require damage to any of the pieces to get them loose again. Epoxy is at the top of the list of things to be avoided. For securing hilts, cutler's resin is sufficient, easy to make, and easy to undo with heat. There are a number of online how-to videos with various formulae. Even for repairing a crack in wood, epoxy is undesirable because it is thick and will leave a glue line. Modern cross link polymer and cyanoacrylate glues are appropriate for these types of repairs if dry clamping shows that the crack can be drawn together and glued invisibly. Again, I hope that I didn't offend anybody but I couldn't let this go. I am sure that, if there are any forum members that are involved with antique furniture restoration, they will agree with me wholeheartedly.

Sincerely,
RobT

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

I went back and forth for an entire day before finally deciding to make this post. I really don't like to get up on a soapbox and I sincerely hope no one is offended but the mention in this thread of a hilt epoxied in place made my skin crawl. Normally, I would preface my remarks with "in my opinion" but in this case I will say without the slightest equivocation that components of antique or collectible weapons should never be affixed by any method or with any substance that would require damage to any of the pieces to get them loose again. Epoxy is at the top of the list of things to be avoided. For securing hilts, cutler's resin is sufficient, easy to make, and easy to undo with heat. There are a number of online how-to videos with various formulae. Even for repairing a crack in wood, epoxy is undesirable because it is thick and will leave a glue line. Modern cross link polymer and cyanoacrylate glues are appropriate for these types of repairs if dry clamping shows that the crack can be drawn together and glued invisibly. Again, I hope that I didn't offend anybody but I couldn't let this go. I am sure that, if there are any forum members that are involved with antique furniture restoration, they will agree with me wholeheartedly.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hello Rob!

Firstly: I understand your concern, and that's a common mindset among provenance-based antique collectors. There is a focus on keeping an item "as is" and close to the original item as possible, although I contend that this is where the "Ship of Theseus" paradox comes in. IMHO, any modification to a piece, no matter how close to the original material was used, is already a modification nonetheless. The only way to keep a piece "frozen in time" or "consistent with its original provenance" is simply to let it be- which, for a large number of antique Moro and Filipino tradblades- is in their rusted, dilapidated, or incomplete condition.

Secondly: I secure my pieces with epoxy because I do not intend these as display-only pieces. As several in this forum already know- Kino, Ian, Leif, Gavin, Jeff, and others- I restore my pieces in order to wield and cut different media with them. It's part of my personal study as a student of the Moro Fighting Arts. Epoxy is the best adhesive to secure a blade to the hilt, especially in the case of antiques being "called back from retirement" and put under cutting tests. This practice has been done with the approval and guidance of Moro elders, in order for us to actualize the preserved martial methods into blades from bygone eras, while maintaining a degree of safety and avoiding accidents such as flying blades (this has happened several times with antiques whose original adhesives have dried up). To note- Moro blades made in modern time are installed to the hilt with epoxy, as generations of artisans have noted its superior strength compared to other adhesives. It's simply a modern and accessible solution for extensive blade usage in a modern era.

Thirdly: I bought the item, so it's mine to do as I wish. There are loads of other samples, better and complete ones, stored up or displayed in museums and collections all over the world, in all their as-is provenance glory. In my case, actualizing generations' worth of martial methods on the actual artifacts takes precedence over attempting to keep a piece frozen in time. I take extra care in describing any modern modifications or materials used in my pieces (I do this for all my forum and published-media posts).

I bear you no ill-will, and I don't expect you to agree with my reasons; but I just wanted to state those for the record.

[drac2k]

Both of you have valid points; one of you for preserving the integrity of the artifact and the other for preserving the ancient practice of the martial arts. Each equally important and based on one's particular pursuit of knowledge.

[Ian]

Rob and Xas,

Thank you for the manner you both expressed your views on this subject of restoration and preservation. All views are valid on this matter, and the Forum is stronger for having different viewpoints discussed frankly and without rancor. As you both know, this has not always been the case on this Forum.

It's always nice to have serious adults in the room who know how to respectfully disagree. Thank you.

Ian

[Interested Party]

To begin, beautiful blades. Thanks to everyone for increasing the data base. This is an interesting and frank discussion of the issues I am sure many of the readers here have wrestled with internally. I have used tradition and modern repairs on antique pieces as did my ancestors before me. Usually, it fell along the two lines of thought. 1) What is the best method to repair damage that it will look the best and last for future generations? 2) Is the item still in its working life or is this piece now a time capsule?

I have tended to prefer traditional methods when they serve the purposes above. It sounds to me that Xas has some serious concerns regarding the safety Culters resins and large blades that repeatably receive impacts? Is this accurate? If so, do you have a ballpark of how many cuts it takes before a traditional resin begins to fail? This would be in interesting historical foot note. Would we consider that the working life of these blades in question is still continuing??

Best wishes to everyone.
IP