old kukri, damascus? what pattern?

spiral · 28th May 2006, 11:43 PM

Well Ive had this kukri for a couple of years but etched it lightly this afternoon, {boiling vinigar.} & although I have a couple of laminated kukri, one in Tibetan hairpin style & also a coursly layered folded one, which are quite obvious, but to me this one seems a tottaly different type of metal or pattern, much finer.

what is it? Opinions & views needed!

Thankyou.

Spiral

max.blade dia. in above pic. 55mm

& thinner below.

Rick · 29th May 2006, 01:09 AM

I wouldn't say that it is a pattern with a name Spiral . It's not wootz but it is finely forged pattern welded or mechanical damascus steel incorporating many layers .
What percentage of Kukri blades are made in this fashion ; any idea ?

spiral · 29th May 2006, 11:57 PM

Thanks Rick,Thats helpfull.

I must admit the nearest thing I have seen to it is the Hada on some Japanese work, I didnt realise the Indians or Nepalis did laminating this close/fine & had wondered it it was a variety of wootsz , or even some other proccess I was unaware of.

As to percentages it seems to me that many pre c.1825 era {say Georgian & earlier} are varities of decorative laminated steel , possibly even 50% of them.]

In Victorean times decorative patterns seems much less common {maybe 5% or 10% of non issue kukris, {private purchase or civilian ownership.} although most kukris of that era are laminated shear steel so any faults show up as pattern but the perfect laminations dont as only one steel type was used., so it is not generaly classed as Damascus I understand?

The percentages & date I give are my impresions based on 3 or 4 of the worlds leading kukri collections, including my own, but are not scientificaly or mathmaticaly verified.

They are off the top of my head, so are not exact, just my thoughts.

I have 4 laminated ones I have positivly brought up to visible to date, but suspect I have another 3 to 5 still to be reaveled.

None appered laminated when first seen, so were just bought as random kukris of classical style. This one was obviously exceptionaly well made though.

Intrestingly evry one I have is laminated in a different manner, which for some reason surprises me. Perhaps it shouldnt?

Realy I need to learn more about etching, I have read a lot but not experimented much, tending to err on the side of caution so far!

Spiral

Rick · 30th May 2006, 12:55 AM

Start with hot vinegar solution with a drop of soap.
Have the blade hot too ; Email or PM William M. ; he seems to have it down .

Use the weakest solution possible at first ; but you also may want to consider ; is showing the forge pattern important to Gurkhas or is a high polish what is desired within the culture .

spiral · 30th May 2006, 01:13 AM

Thanks Rick, I understand the tecniques with vinigar, lemon, lime etc. its the practical expierience I lack! Sorry my wording was not clear.

Originaly when made i am sure the patterns were shown.

When ones sees the skill & decoration in the oldest kukri & thier scabbards I think it corrobarates the love of art, style, beuty etc.

And certanly The modern dealers,Kami & collectors in Nepal like them patterned.

I think the loss off pattern was the ingnorance of the British soldiers who brought them back as first trophys & then as battle field pick ups from fallen comrades, or thier childrens , grandchildren etc. who inherited them, who were not able to clean or preserve & reshow the true nature of the laminated patterns. {Of course British Officers often bought or were gifted kukris historicaly as well.}

Lots of lemon & limes in Nepal.

Spiral

Battara · 31st May 2006, 02:38 AM

Spiral,

Victorians were nortorious for wanting shiny blades and would not only polish them to appear bright, but they would even polish out any inlay that a blade might have just to be shiny.

Unfortunately, Americans did this as well. There are many kukris as you know that are pattern welded but have not been kept in this condition. Nice patterning and the Indians were experts on pattern welding as well wootz.

28th May 2006, 11:43 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	old kukri, damascus? what pattern? Well Ive had this kukri for a couple of years but etched it lightly this afternoon, {boiling vinigar.} & although I have a couple of laminated kukri, one in Tibetan hairpin style & also a coursly layered folded one, which are quite obvious, but to me this one seems a tottaly different type of metal or pattern, much finer. what is it? Opinions & views needed! Thankyou. Spiral max.blade dia. in above pic. 55mm & thinner below.

29th May 2006, 01:09 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I wouldn't say that it is a pattern with a name Spiral . It's not wootz but it is finely forged pattern welded or mechanical damascus steel incorporating many layers . What percentage of Kukri blades are made in this fashion ; any idea ?

29th May 2006, 11:57 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Rick,Thats helpfull. I must admit the nearest thing I have seen to it is the Hada on some Japanese work, I didnt realise the Indians or Nepalis did laminating this close/fine & had wondered it it was a variety of wootsz , or even some other proccess I was unaware of. As to percentages it seems to me that many pre c.1825 era {say Georgian & earlier} are varities of decorative laminated steel , possibly even 50% of them.] In Victorean times decorative patterns seems much less common {maybe 5% or 10% of non issue kukris, {private purchase or civilian ownership.} although most kukris of that era are laminated shear steel so any faults show up as pattern but the perfect laminations dont as only one steel type was used., so it is not generaly classed as Damascus I understand? The percentages & date I give are my impresions based on 3 or 4 of the worlds leading kukri collections, including my own, but are not scientificaly or mathmaticaly verified. They are off the top of my head, so are not exact, just my thoughts. I have 4 laminated ones I have positivly brought up to visible to date, but suspect I have another 3 to 5 still to be reaveled. None appered laminated when first seen, so were just bought as random kukris of classical style. This one was obviously exceptionaly well made though. Intrestingly evry one I have is laminated in a different manner, which for some reason surprises me. Perhaps it shouldnt? Realy I need to learn more about etching, I have read a lot but not experimented much, tending to err on the side of caution so far! Spiral

30th May 2006, 12:55 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Start with hot vinegar solution with a drop of soap. Have the blade hot too ; Email or PM William M. ; he seems to have it down . Use the weakest solution possible at first ; but you also may want to consider ; is showing the forge pattern important to Gurkhas or is a high polish what is desired within the culture .

30th May 2006, 01:13 AM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Rick, I understand the tecniques with vinigar, lemon, lime etc. its the practical expierience I lack! Sorry my wording was not clear. Originaly when made i am sure the patterns were shown. When ones sees the skill & decoration in the oldest kukri & thier scabbards I think it corrobarates the love of art, style, beuty etc. And certanly The modern dealers,Kami & collectors in Nepal like them patterned. I think the loss off pattern was the ingnorance of the British soldiers who brought them back as first trophys & then as battle field pick ups from fallen comrades, or thier childrens , grandchildren etc. who inherited them, who were not able to clean or preserve & reshow the true nature of the laminated patterns. {Of course British Officers often bought or were gifted kukris historicaly as well.} Lots of lemon & limes in Nepal. Spiral

31st May 2006, 02:38 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Spiral, Victorians were nortorious for wanting shiny blades and would not only polish them to appear bright, but they would even polish out any inlay that a blade might have just to be shiny. Unfortunately, Americans did this as well. There are many kukris as you know that are pattern welded but have not been kept in this condition. Nice patterning and the Indians were experts on pattern welding as well wootz.