help with calligraphy on Shamshir and/or Kilij

G Scott · 31st March 2020, 08:09 PM

Hi new member here and I do not have much knowledge of these swords I obtained in Amman recently. Based on googling images I believe these are examples of a Shamshir and/or Kilij sward - presumably Ottoman-Turk period in the region. They appear to be at least 50 years old. Is it possible for someone with knowledge of the calligraphy to help me identify both the maker and the terms on these swords? Thanks

mariusgmioc · 31st March 2020, 11:42 PM

Hello and welcome!

As a rule, you should post photos of the whole sword!

In order to get a more educated answer you should post photos of the whole sword.

All said, both look like modern Indian made decorative swords.

Oliver Pinchot · 1st April 2020, 01:22 AM

These are contemporary work, made for the tourist trade.

G Scott · 1st April 2020, 03:24 AM

I am quite sure these are "tourist grade," seems reasonable to assume as they do not appear to be very well made. Sorry for the partial photo, but I am mostly interested if someone can help me understand the calligraphy on the blades. The two appear to be different cursive styles. one with square calligraphy and the other entirely different. Thank you again.

Battara · 1st April 2020, 05:40 AM

Well that makes sense. It's like someone ground off the yelmens!

mariusgmioc · 1st April 2020, 10:47 AM

I have wandered the souk of Amman. Very difficult to find something genuine of quality there. Almost everything is modern Indian made... And almost all sellers were saying everything they sell is genuine beduin work...

I only found a few shibriya daggers that were probably locally made but their quality was horrible.

G Scott · 1st April 2020, 06:46 PM

OK - new to this forum and trying to find my way on posting replies. My initial message was asking for help in understanding the calligraphy on the 2 swords posted. Appreciate the comments on these being made in India for tourists. This is probably true as I found them in a back office of an art dealer while chatting. However - my main question is can someone help me understand the calligraphy on both swords and maker marks? The bottom sword has calligraphy on both sides of blade and on top, appears square islamic calligraphy. The top sword appears older and has calligraphy on both sides of blade and on top of the blade, but this is much more cursive and artistic. Again any thoughtful help, much appreciated. Also - someone mentioned I should post only full pictures of the swords - see attachment.

mariusgmioc · 3rd April 2020, 10:54 AM

Thank you for posting the pictures of the whole swords!

As these are purely decorative/touristy (and I must say of very, very low quality) items, the script also has purely decorative purpose.

However, on real swords in most cases the script has talismanic role and usually includes verses from the Quran and wishes for good health and protection for the owner and for fear and deadly wounds for the enemy.

All said, in this case and in my oppinion the maker marks, if any, as well as the text have absolutely no relevance whatsoever, as these two are not even real swords.

ariel · 3rd April 2020, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

All said, in this case and in my oppinion the maker marks, if any, as well as the text have absolutely no relevance whatsoever, as these two are not even real swords.

Well, these are real swords. Not historical, but theoretically practical.
As a decorative display on top of a book shelf they are admirably fine. As a matter of fact, we don’t even know their functional quality: perhaps, battle-wise they may be even better than mass-produced 16 century examples. Even cheap modern steels may be stronger and more resilient.

IMHO, each person has a God-given right to decorate his man-cave the way he wants. The only point here whether they were sold under false pretenses.

And please notice that the owner knows they are +/- new. He just wanted a translation, no more.

31st March 2020, 08:09 PM	#1
G Scott Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 3	help with calligraphy on Shamshir and/or Kilij Hi new member here and I do not have much knowledge of these swords I obtained in Amman recently. Based on googling images I believe these are examples of a Shamshir and/or Kilij sward - presumably Ottoman-Turk period in the region. They appear to be at least 50 years old. Is it possible for someone with knowledge of the calligraphy to help me identify both the maker and the terms on these swords? Thanks Attached Images

31st March 2020, 11:42 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello and welcome! As a rule, you should post photos of the whole sword! In order to get a more educated answer you should post photos of the whole sword. All said, both look like modern Indian made decorative swords. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 1st April 2020 at 10:36 AM.

1st April 2020, 05:40 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Well that makes sense. It's like someone ground off the yelmens! Last edited by Battara; 1st April 2020 at 08:51 PM.

1st April 2020, 10:47 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I have wandered the souk of Amman. Very difficult to find something genuine of quality there. Almost everything is modern Indian made... And almost all sellers were saying everything they sell is genuine beduin work... I only found a few shibriya daggers that were probably locally made but their quality was horrible. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 1st April 2020 at 11:06 AM.

1st April 2020, 06:46 PM	#7
G Scott Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 3	help with calligraphy on Shamshir and/or Kilij OK - new to this forum and trying to find my way on posting replies. My initial message was asking for help in understanding the calligraphy on the 2 swords posted. Appreciate the comments on these being made in India for tourists. This is probably true as I found them in a back office of an art dealer while chatting. However - my main question is can someone help me understand the calligraphy on both swords and maker marks? The bottom sword has calligraphy on both sides of blade and on top, appears square islamic calligraphy. The top sword appears older and has calligraphy on both sides of blade and on top of the blade, but this is much more cursive and artistic. Again any thoughtful help, much appreciated. Also - someone mentioned I should post only full pictures of the swords - see attachment. Attached Images

1st April 2020, 01:22 AM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	These are contemporary work, made for the tourist trade.

1st April 2020, 03:24 AM	#4
G Scott Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 3	I am quite sure these are "tourist grade," seems reasonable to assume as they do not appear to be very well made. Sorry for the partial photo, but I am mostly interested if someone can help me understand the calligraphy on the blades. The two appear to be different cursive styles. one with square calligraphy and the other entirely different. Thank you again.

3rd April 2020, 10:54 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you for posting the pictures of the whole swords! As these are purely decorative/touristy (and I must say of very, very low quality) items, the script also has purely decorative purpose. However, on real swords in most cases the script has talismanic role and usually includes verses from the Quran and wishes for good health and protection for the owner and for fear and deadly wounds for the enemy. All said, in this case and in my oppinion the maker marks, if any, as well as the text have absolutely no relevance whatsoever, as these two are not even real swords.