British pattern Infantry sword....please help

katana · 19th December 2006, 04:16 PM

Just added this sword to my collection.....wanted to have some 'colonial' weapons....which possibly would have seen service in Africa, India etc. to put the Ethnographic weapons, of the same period, into some sort of context.

I need help identify the pattern and possible age of this sword.....nicely balanced and very manouverable. O.A.L 31", blade has single wide fuller and has a few, very faint traces of etched patterns. Some very old nicks to the blade but overall good.
I noticed on one side of the blade some pitting (in a localised area)which seemed 'not quite right'.....investigating the 'pits' with a Jewelers loupe I found there are some very minute pieces of 'foreign' metal fragments 'inbedded' in the 'craters'. (when I say minute, I mean they are not really visible to the naked eye) I am certain they are not impurites forged into the blade, perhaps suggesting shrapnel

The proof mark has 'MB' in an Italic style.

This sword has certainly seen some action..... and probably has 'many a tale to tell'.....

Please any comments or info.....as usual....very gratefully received

Regards David

Paul Digard · 19th December 2006, 07:22 PM

Hi David

It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller.

Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas.

Hope this helps

Paul

Rick · 19th December 2006, 10:26 PM

bump

spiral · 19th December 2006, 10:50 PM

Reminds me of the UK Police, prison & customs officers swords, they are nearer that length, but I dont think they would have the bugle, thats normaly for light infantry rregiments.

Spiral

katana · 19th December 2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Digard

Hi David

It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller.

Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas.

Hope this helps

Paul

Thankyou Paul.....and welcome to the forum...I am sure you'll enjoy it here on the Forum.

The blade is indeed short it is 25 3/4 "" long .......6 3/4" too less than the 'regulation' length

There are no visible signs of this sword having been 'cut down', it must have been well done and very early in its life (the colouring/patina is consistant with the rest of the blade). It was the length ........or should that be ....its shortness...that threw me.It had all the characteristics of the p1827 but the length was nowhere near.

The other strange thing is that the balance of this sword is excellent and the ease of use surprised me. Perhaps this was shortened to achieve this goal

Surely the extra 6 3/4" would change all that...in a negative way

Jeff D · 20th December 2006, 01:42 AM

Hi katana,

I think that is a Wilkinson proof mark. Is there a number on the spine of the blade. Good eye Paul (and welcome here), that looks like a hunting horn, I have never seen that one before?

hope this helps.
Jeff

katana · 20th December 2006, 12:05 PM

Thankyou, Spiral your suggestions will give me another area to research.

(sorry I didn't notice your post....we must have posted at around the same time)

Thanks Jeff for your input....unfortunately there are no serial numbers. The etching on the blade is very badly worn, I can just make out a crown and some 'foliage' type design ....so no clues there either. I did not realise that the 'horn' could be helpful in IDing the sword...I will post a better pic of it soon.

katana · 20th December 2006, 12:34 PM

The 'Horn'....

katana · 20th December 2006, 09:50 PM

I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India.

"The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (51st 105th Regiments of Foot)

The 51st Regiment of Foot was raised in 1755 within the West Riding of Yorkshire and has been associated with this area ever since. In 1839 the East India Company raised a new Regiment the Second Madras Light Infantry.

After the Indian Mutiny of 1857 this Regiment was re-designated as the 105th Foot (Madras Light Infantry).

The Cardwell reforms of 1881 saw the 51st 105th Regiments of Foot amalgamated to form The Kings Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)"

"

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2006, 03:17 AM

Hi Paul!
Its great to see you posting here!!!!

I have always very much enjoyed your posts and outstanding knowledge on military weapons, and its good to have your input.

Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms.

David, nice work on finding the regimental data key to this interesting sword! and thanks very much for sharing this example.

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 21st December 2006, 09:35 AM

According to the book "Swords of the British Army" this is an infantry officers sword after 1845 when the 1822 and almost identical 1827 patterns with a pipe back blade was replaced with the broad single fuller version. The guard was also made a little more sturdy to compensate the extra weight of the blade but still considered rather light. In 1854 the royal cypher was replaced by the regimental badge.

Paul Digard · 21st December 2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India.
"

That's a great suggestion but I'm not totally convinced. All the KOYLI badges I've seen have a white rose in the middle. Prompted by that I've had a quick search on the net and have found this:

The Westmoreland Light Infantry Militia
Westmoreland cap badge

The Highland LI also had a French horn but with HLI in the centre.

Is there nothing on the blade to help narrow things down a bit further?

Paul

katana · 21st December 2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms.

All the best,
Jim

I have to say that I totally agree Jim and thats what I mean't by 'putting in some form of context'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In 1854 the royal cypher was replaced by the regimental badge.

Thanks Tim, The 51st /105th Foot saw alot of action from that date, preceding 1854 they had a number of 'Battle Honours' including Waterloo.

1854 India
1857 India
1857 Sepoy rebellion
1858 India
1863 Ambela expedition
1863 India
1872 India
1877 Jowaki operations

1878 India
1878 Afghanistan

1880 India
1881.07.01 1st Battalion, The King's Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)

1881 India: Dinapore
1885 - 2nd Bn. Malta, India (Karachi, Hyderabad, Quetta), Zhob Valley
Expedition, then Bombay, Poona and Nasirabad
1886 Burma

1887-1889 - Third Burmese War - Upper Burma Field Force
1st Battalion, The King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
1895.12 Gold Coast: Ashanti war (det)
1897 Mullingar
1899-1902 2nd Bn. - South African War - Belmont, Graspan, Modder River and Magersfontein, Kimberley, Fourteen Streams, Boshof, Gittenbergen. Orange Free State - Lindley, Bethlehem. Pretoria, Rustenberg (Nooitgedact and Bakenlaagnte) and Krugersdorp. Transvaal to Dundee and back to Transvaal. Also included 4th Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (T.A.)
1906 South Africa

Apparently the Light Infantry were 'skirmishers' deployed to disrupt the enemy line and 'force' the 'broken line'. The sword, being shorter than the military pattern, suggests two things....1. that close combat (often faced by skirmishers) would favour the shorter sword ? Or 2. the sword was made this length or cut down from standard length, possibly in India? Jim has mentioned before that the regulations in India were a little more lax and perhaps this blade length suited an individual or the battle conditions that they faced????

If anyone has any suggestions as to this 'shortened ?' sword I will be very pleased to hear them....

Regards David

Paul Digard · 22nd December 2006, 08:55 AM

Hi David

I tried to post a reply last night but it vanished into the ether. I wondered if perhaps as a newby my posts are moderated and that takes time? Anyway, I'll try again...

The suggestion of a particular regiment based on the French horn is a great idea (I'd forgotten that detail) but I'm not convinced by the KOYLI attribution. Every version of that I've seen or could find on the web last night has a White Rose in the centre. Perhaps the 105 is more plausible but why not 105 as per the cap badge? The Highland Light Infantry also used a French horn, albeit on the usual Scottish background and with HLI in the centre.

But, browsing around, I did find one regiment with an 'empty' horn - the Royal Westmoreland Light Infantry Militia. (But the wrong way round?) Have a look here:

and scroll to the bottom

The top level of the site has a discussion forum which might be worth asking for help on?

Re the shortening of the blade - my guess would be that it got broken and repointed.

Is there really no trace of etching on the blade that might help?

Regards

Paul

Ian · 22nd December 2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Digard

Hi David

I tried to post a reply last night but it vanished into the ether. I wondered if perhaps as a newby my posts are moderated and that takes time? Anyway, I'll try again...

Hi Paul:

Yes the first post is moderated just to make sure new members are not spamming. Sometimes it takes a while to catch up with new posts in teh moderated queue. Sorry for the delay.

Apologies and a belated welcome. Hope you enjoy your time here.

Ian.

19th December 2006, 04:16 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	British pattern Infantry sword....please help Just added this sword to my collection.....wanted to have some 'colonial' weapons....which possibly would have seen service in Africa, India etc. to put the Ethnographic weapons, of the same period, into some sort of context. I need help identify the pattern and possible age of this sword.....nicely balanced and very manouverable. O.A.L 31", blade has single wide fuller and has a few, very faint traces of etched patterns. Some very old nicks to the blade but overall good. I noticed on one side of the blade some pitting (in a localised area)which seemed 'not quite right'.....investigating the 'pits' with a Jewelers loupe I found there are some very minute pieces of 'foreign' metal fragments 'inbedded' in the 'craters'. (when I say minute, I mean they are not really visible to the naked eye) I am certain they are not impurites forged into the blade, perhaps suggesting shrapnel The proof mark has 'MB' in an Italic style. This sword has certainly seen some action..... and probably has 'many a tale to tell'..... Please any comments or info.....as usual....very gratefully received Regards David Attached Images

20th December 2006, 12:34 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The 'Horn'.... Attached Images

20th December 2006, 09:50 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I found information on the 'horn' ...it seems that it is a French horn adopted by the 51st Yorkshire Light Infantry after Waterloo, later to include 105th in India. "The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (51st 105th Regiments of Foot) The 51st Regiment of Foot was raised in 1755 within the West Riding of Yorkshire and has been associated with this area ever since. In 1839 the East India Company raised a new Regiment the Second Madras Light Infantry. After the Indian Mutiny of 1857 this Regiment was re-designated as the 105th Foot (Madras Light Infantry). The Cardwell reforms of 1881 saw the 51st 105th Regiments of Foot amalgamated to form The Kings Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)" " Attached Images

19th December 2006, 07:22 PM	#2
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Hi David It looks like a P1827 pattern Rifle officer's sword though the design of the bugle in the hilt cartouche is slightly different to any I recall seeing before. The fullered blade and inset proof disc date it to later than c. 1850. I suspect the blade has been shortened though - the blade by itself should be around 32.5 inches with 6 or more inches after the end of the fuller. Is there any etched decoration on the blade? I would expect a VR cypher and quite possibly the name of the regiment. There were an awful lot of volunteer rifle brigades set up in Britain in the mid Victorian era and one of these would be pretty unlikely to have seen service overseas. Hope this helps Paul

19th December 2006, 10:26 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	bump

19th December 2006, 10:50 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Reminds me of the UK Police, prison & customs officers swords, they are nearer that length, but I dont think they would have the bugle, thats normaly for light infantry rregiments. Spiral

20th December 2006, 01:42 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi katana, I think that is a Wilkinson proof mark. Is there a number on the spine of the blade. Good eye Paul (and welcome here), that looks like a hunting horn, I have never seen that one before? hope this helps. Jeff

20th December 2006, 12:05 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou, Spiral your suggestions will give me another area to research. (sorry I didn't notice your post....we must have posted at around the same time) Thanks Jeff for your input....unfortunately there are no serial numbers. The etching on the blade is very badly worn, I can just make out a crown and some 'foliage' type design ....so no clues there either. I did not realise that the 'horn' could be helpful in IDing the sword...I will post a better pic of it soon.

21st December 2006, 03:17 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Paul! Its great to see you posting here!!!! I have always very much enjoyed your posts and outstanding knowledge on military weapons, and its good to have your input. Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms. David, nice work on finding the regimental data key to this interesting sword! and thanks very much for sharing this example. All the best, Jim

21st December 2006, 09:35 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	According to the book "Swords of the British Army" this is an infantry officers sword after 1845 when the 1822 and almost identical 1827 patterns with a pipe back blade was replaced with the broad single fuller version. The guard was also made a little more sturdy to compensate the extra weight of the blade but still considered rather light. In 1854 the royal cypher was replaced by the regimental badge.

22nd December 2006, 08:55 AM	#14
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Hi David I tried to post a reply last night but it vanished into the ether. I wondered if perhaps as a newby my posts are moderated and that takes time? Anyway, I'll try again... The suggestion of a particular regiment based on the French horn is a great idea (I'd forgotten that detail) but I'm not convinced by the KOYLI attribution. Every version of that I've seen or could find on the web last night has a White Rose in the centre. Perhaps the 105 is more plausible but why not 105 as per the cap badge? The Highland Light Infantry also used a French horn, albeit on the usual Scottish background and with HLI in the centre. But, browsing around, I did find one regiment with an 'empty' horn - the Royal Westmoreland Light Infantry Militia. (But the wrong way round?) Have a look here: and scroll to the bottom The top level of the site has a discussion forum which might be worth asking for help on? Re the shortening of the blade - my guess would be that it got broken and repointed. Is there really no trace of etching on the blade that might help? Regards Paul