Shamshir ?

Rivkin · 8th December 2006, 05:19 PM

Technical question - how large should be the sabre's curvature for us to consider it a shamshir ? I am trying to arrange my material on sabres, and come to some funny conclusions.

All books I have follow Pletneva in measuring the curvature in cm (how far away the blade from the line that connects the hilt and the blade's end).

Can someone say if 15cm for a meter or so blade would qualify for a shamshir ?

Rivkin · 8th December 2006, 06:51 PM

Ok, here is the picture. Would it qualify to be called persian shamshir or not ?

Nah, most likely not. Sorry to bother.

S.Al-Anizi · 8th December 2006, 08:07 PM

Well, literally, shamshir means sword in Persian, so how does a curvature classify whats to be called a shamshir and whats not??

Rivkin · 8th December 2006, 08:45 PM

I meant shamshir as in collector's slang shamshir, i.e. highly curved persian sabre. I do not share the sentiment that we need to use names consistent with local persian attributions.

Emanuel · 8th December 2006, 09:35 PM

Hello,

If it is Persian and it is not a shamshir and definitely not a kilij, what other kind of sabre can it be? Are there other types/names?
I had thought the name applied to persian sabres with a relatively thin curved blade...thinner than a tulwar for example. There are some tulwar with extreme curvature as well no?

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2006, 10:04 PM

Once again, getting into colloquial terms, especially 'collectors terms' causes certain problems in trying to classify weapons. For example the well worn term 'scimitar' used consistantly in Victorian romanticism has virtually no place in describing any particular weapon, and the term evolved actually from loose transliteration of the term 'shamshir'. I agree that trying to determine which sabre is a shamshir and which is a tulwar or kilij can be maddening.

It seems to me that a shamshir blade is of wide range of curvature from quite shallow to fully parabolic, and I have seen deeply Parabolic Persian blades mounted with the typical Ottoman hilt seen on kilij. I cannot decide whether this should be called an Ottoman shamshir or Persian kilij!

It seems most likely to call it a shamshir in Ottoman mounts.

The Indian tulwars are also frustrating. While typically mounted in what collectors term 'Indo-Persian' hilt, there are examples that seem to come from regions in Sind, that carry a solid steel Persian type 'shamshir' hilt.
Would this be a tulwar or a shamshir? Since the hilt carries distinctive 'tulwar' elements (the langets and the characteristic quillon terminals) it seems it should be classified tulwar with Persian form hilt.

It seems with many hybrid forms it is virtually impossible to escape more detailed wording in classifying them.Often even when new research has revealed a term to be incorrectly used (such as in the case of jemadhar vs. katar) it is difficult to unseat terms that have become imbedded in the long established vocabulary used in discussion (i.e. collectors terms).

Best regards,
Jim

8th December 2006, 05:19 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Shamshir ? Technical question - how large should be the sabre's curvature for us to consider it a shamshir ? I am trying to arrange my material on sabres, and come to some funny conclusions. All books I have follow Pletneva in measuring the curvature in cm (how far away the blade from the line that connects the hilt and the blade's end). Can someone say if 15cm for a meter or so blade would qualify for a shamshir ?

8th December 2006, 06:51 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ok, here is the picture. Would it qualify to be called persian shamshir or not ? Nah, most likely not. Sorry to bother. Attached Images

8th December 2006, 08:07 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Well, literally, shamshir means sword in Persian, so how does a curvature classify whats to be called a shamshir and whats not??

8th December 2006, 08:45 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I meant shamshir as in collector's slang shamshir, i.e. highly curved persian sabre. I do not share the sentiment that we need to use names consistent with local persian attributions.

8th December 2006, 09:35 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, If it is Persian and it is not a shamshir and definitely not a kilij, what other kind of sabre can it be? Are there other types/names? I had thought the name applied to persian sabres with a relatively thin curved blade...thinner than a tulwar for example. There are some tulwar with extreme curvature as well no? Emanuel

8th December 2006, 10:04 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Once again, getting into colloquial terms, especially 'collectors terms' causes certain problems in trying to classify weapons. For example the well worn term 'scimitar' used consistantly in Victorian romanticism has virtually no place in describing any particular weapon, and the term evolved actually from loose transliteration of the term 'shamshir'. I agree that trying to determine which sabre is a shamshir and which is a tulwar or kilij can be maddening. It seems to me that a shamshir blade is of wide range of curvature from quite shallow to fully parabolic, and I have seen deeply Parabolic Persian blades mounted with the typical Ottoman hilt seen on kilij. I cannot decide whether this should be called an Ottoman shamshir or Persian kilij! It seems most likely to call it a shamshir in Ottoman mounts. The Indian tulwars are also frustrating. While typically mounted in what collectors term 'Indo-Persian' hilt, there are examples that seem to come from regions in Sind, that carry a solid steel Persian type 'shamshir' hilt. Would this be a tulwar or a shamshir? Since the hilt carries distinctive 'tulwar' elements (the langets and the characteristic quillon terminals) it seems it should be classified tulwar with Persian form hilt. It seems with many hybrid forms it is virtually impossible to escape more detailed wording in classifying them.Often even when new research has revealed a term to be incorrectly used (such as in the case of jemadhar vs. katar) it is difficult to unseat terms that have become imbedded in the long established vocabulary used in discussion (i.e. collectors terms). Best regards, Jim