Silver Keris Coteng with old restoration

Roland_M · 6th October 2015, 01:03 PM

Hello all,

Here is another member of my Keris family.
Recently acquired and after some hours of gently removing the thick black patina a high quality figure appeared.

I added one picture together with a beautiful Bali Keris to demonstrate, how small the Coteng is.

Parts of the figure and scabbard are obviously non original. The lower part of the figure and the silver on the mouth of the warangka (with a thick black patina) are result of a very old restoration. I believe, this is a European restoration from the 19th ct. or earlier and the maker had no idea and no model, so we probably see a very well made European interpretation of a Keris. This increases the historical value of this Keris for me.

The blade is another very exciting part of this Keris, it is obviously very old, the Ganja is lost. Despite the fact it is a quite thick blade, the opposite side of the Gandik is thin like paper and rusted through.
This blade furthermore have 3D waves, they are bended also in the z-direction, similar to a Keris Pejetan.
I have problems to count the number of luk on this Keris, I count 10 luk, which must be wrong. Which number is correct, 9 or 11? Or is it an extremely old blade with an even number of luk?

I would be happy, to see some comments, especially to my theory about the restoration and the blade itself.

Thank you for reading; I hope it was not too boring and many thanks for every comment.

Best wishes,
Roland

Jean · 6th October 2015, 02:48 PM

Hello Roland,
To me this blade clearly has 11 luks (the tip is worn-out) and it looks javanese, may be in Pengging style because of the deep luks. It is a pity that the ganja is missing!
Regards

Gustav · 6th October 2015, 03:56 PM

I suppose the hilt repair is done locally.

The Sogokan are a bit long for a Javanese blade.

Nice hilt, even with a repair.

David · 6th October 2015, 07:01 PM

A very nice silver coteng hilt. The sheath repair is well done, but i really couldn't comment as to whether or not it was a local or European repair. Not exactly a "restoration" as missing pieces of the sheath have not been restored, but it has a nice quality look over all.
It is a shame about the missing gonjo. I personally have a hard time getting too excited about incomplete blades. You might be able to commission a replacement if the keris is an important one for you.
On luks i would count this as 11. The tip had obviously suffered some erosion to account for the confusion on your count.
I am afraid i don't understand what you mean by your comparison to Keris Pejetan. I see nothing in your blade from these photographs that looks like impressed fingertips.

Sajen · 6th October 2015, 11:34 PM

Hi Roland,

agree, it's a very interesting coteng with all the repairs, equal if done locally or later in Europe. And I agree with the others, clearly a 11 luk blade, the last curve is worn.
And a very good observation from Gustav, the blade don't need to be a Java blade, it look more like an old Palembang blade IMVHO. To bad that the gonjo is missing.

David, I think that Roland mean with the comparison to pejetan that the blade has a sinus like wave along the length, I have seen this before and think that there is name also for a blade like this.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2015, 12:24 AM

In respect of blade origin:- I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin. True, the sogokan are a little longer than usual for Jawa, but I have seen innumerable examples of variation from the norm in Javanese blades, and Balinese also, for that matter, not only in sogokan, but in all possible ways. Personally, I'd be happy to accept this as Javanese until it could be shown to be other than that.

Gustav · 7th October 2015, 01:10 AM

That what is left of the Ricikan details is insufficient for me to speculate about the orgin of this blade. Yet - if blades from Malay Peninsula do have Sogokan, it tend to be long.

Roland_M · 7th October 2015, 10:53 PM

Thanks for all the comments. Detlef (sajen) explained very well what I tried to say with "curved in z-direction".

There are 11 luk, thanks.

I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge.
I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing.

My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes.

Roland

David · 8th October 2015, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge.
I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing.

My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes.

Roland, if, as most seem to agree, this blade originated in Jawa it would not be correct to re-polish it anyway. Balinese blades were often polished after cleaning, but it is not the norm for keris in general.
The sheath here was obviously damaged and is missing parts of the original wood. I don't believe that an Indonesian silversmith would have been capable of making a repair that returned this sheath to its original and intended shape as a coteng sheath. So i'm not convinced that is evidence of where this repair was actually done. It could still be Indonesian work as easily as European IMO. In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not.

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 09:03 AM

As I wrote, because of the state of the blade in question I am not able to say, where this blade has been made. I have named almost only one still readable Ricikan feature, and this feature, together with dress, allow to think of Malay Peninsula as one of possible origin places of this blade.

Now I would like to hear some equally valid arguments for Java as origin of it, as, I quote, most of us seem to agree, this blade was originated in Java.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2015, 10:08 AM

Gustav, I do not believe that anybody has said that this blade could not have originated in the Peninsula, and speaking for myself, I am quite prepared to accept the possibility of Peninsula origin, or Kalimantan origin, or South Sumatran origin, or origin in almost any place in SE Asia.

However my opinion is that there is nothing at all in the make-up of this blade that would prevent it from originating in Jawa, as I wrote:-

"I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin."

Jean has said:- "It looks Javanese"

Detlef thinks it looks like a Palembang blade.

Once again, simply opinions.

You have expressed your opinion that it could be Peninsula.

We all have different opinions, and to attempt to construct any sort of logical argument to support any point of origin, when all we have are photos on several different computer monitors would seem to me to be not only pointless in this case, but without question, impossible.

Personally, I don't want to change anybody's opinion, most especially since it seems that none of us hold our individual opinions with very much conviction.

I will make one further comment. It is not the condition of the blade , nor the erosion of the blade features that is the problem in any attempt to be too definite about this blade origin. The problem is that the blade has several features which do not really fit together very well:- the ada-ada is a high ridge that continues to the point, the blumbangan is boto rubuh, the gandhik looks like something from Lombok or further east, pamor appears to be sanak, the wave form is similar to that which many people usually associate with Pengging or even Pajang. In fact, we're looking at a dog's breakfast of various styles. Overall, yes, Javanese, based on pawakan, but one place where this assemblage of various styles does occur fairly frequently is Borneo, ie, Brunei and Kalimantan.

More opinions are always welcome, but let us not try to support an opinion that cannot be supported.

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 12:29 PM

Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response - my thoughts are very similar, if not almost the same.

Dear All, I think, we should try to avoid a swift attribution without proper looking at the parameters of blade. Of course it is almost not worth all the trouble in this case, yet it always is a good exercise.

Jean · 8th October 2015, 12:44 PM

Thank you Alan. I would like to add 2 observations:
. From the pics the blade does not seem to properly fit into the scabbard (sinking & floating into the slot and with a different angle), so this kris is probably a dealer's montage?
. According to a well-known javanese kris book written by Koesni in 1979, a long sogokan is an indicator of tangguh Pajang but we know how incertain it is...

Gustav, could you please show us a similar wavy blade attributed to the Malay Peninsula?

Regards

Roland_M · 8th October 2015, 12:45 PM

Alan, I'm far away from being an expert for Keris like you.
My simple opinion is, that the blade is older than the hilt and sheath. The blade fits very exactly in the sheath, so I think it could be the original blade for this Coteng.

If this would help, I can make some makro-pictures from different angles.

Thank you for your very valuable comments.

I'm also very thankful, if you correct my opinion, with your expert knowledge.

Many collectors including myself have a tendency to admire their own blades more than they are worth with a more objective point of view.

Roland

Roland_M · 8th October 2015, 12:59 PM

"In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not. "

David, this makes sense.

But the quality of the silver work is on a high level, I almost think, a new sheath would be cheaper than such a silverwork.

The upper ring was lost, I gave the sheath to a jeweller and he took ~75$ for only one silver ring.

All I can say for sure is that it is a quite old restoration because of the thick black patina, the surface of the silver is full of tiny pitting.

Roland

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Alan. I would like to add 2 observations:
. From the pics the blade does not seem to properly fit into the scabbard (sinking & floating into the slot and with a different angle), so this kris is probably a dealer's montage?
. According to a well-known javanese kris book written by Koesni in 1979, a long sogokan is an indicator of tangguh Pajang but we know how incertain it is...

Gustav, could you please show us a similar wavy blade attributed to the Malay Peninsula?

Regards

Jean,

please just use search function, the word "Malela", and you will find a lot of wavy peninsular blades with long Sogokan in UBB forum, which all are, of course, much younger then this blade and so different in style. Really old peninsular blades are practically unknown. Three interesting blades also here on the first page, for you particularly the last one:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kedah

That dealer would have lived a long time before. I have seen the pics of it before cleaning.

May I ask - its Pengging or Pajang to you now?

Regards

Jean · 8th October 2015, 06:51 PM

Hello Gustav,
Thank you for the link to this old thread.
Regarding the origin of this blade and considering its poor condition & missing ganja, I am not asserting anything but just giving my modest opinion in order to initiate the discussion...
Regards

Gustav · 8th October 2015, 10:02 PM

Hello Jean,

I understand, thank you for clarification.

Regards

Roland_M · 8th October 2015, 10:56 PM

Some additional pictures of the blade.

I think the curvature in both directions is good to see.

David · 12th October 2015, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Some additional pictures of the blade.

I think the curvature in both directions is good to see.

Thanks for the extra photos Roland. I can see now what you mean about it looking like a pejetan blade. This doesn't seem to me to be the type of blade that would get a pejetan treatment. For instance i have never seen a keris pejetan with a strong ada-ada like this blade has. So perhaps these bends are coincidental or accidental.

As for silver work, it is relatively cheap to do silver work in Indonesia as compared to most places in the western world. I discovered this a few years back when i wanted to silver plate a brass pendok for a new sheath and it was actually far cheaper for me to ship it there and back for the plating than to have a local guy do it here in the states. Commissioning an entire sheath would probably be more expensive than adding a bit of silver work to cover damage on an old sheath if the work was done in Indonesia.

maxbliss888 · 29th October 2015, 09:32 AM

Interesting Coteng....

maxbliss888 · 31st October 2015, 07:00 PM

My Thai collector comment is that the Silver coteng was made in Indonesia...maybe 40-50'years ago...

6th October 2015, 01:03 PM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Silver Keris Coteng with old restoration Hello all, Here is another member of my Keris family. Recently acquired and after some hours of gently removing the thick black patina a high quality figure appeared. I added one picture together with a beautiful Bali Keris to demonstrate, how small the Coteng is. Parts of the figure and scabbard are obviously non original. The lower part of the figure and the silver on the mouth of the warangka (with a thick black patina) are result of a very old restoration. I believe, this is a European restoration from the 19th ct. or earlier and the maker had no idea and no model, so we probably see a very well made European interpretation of a Keris. This increases the historical value of this Keris for me. The blade is another very exciting part of this Keris, it is obviously very old, the Ganja is lost. Despite the fact it is a quite thick blade, the opposite side of the Gandik is thin like paper and rusted through. This blade furthermore have 3D waves, they are bended also in the z-direction, similar to a Keris Pejetan. I have problems to count the number of luk on this Keris, I count 10 luk, which must be wrong. Which number is correct, 9 or 11? Or is it an extremely old blade with an even number of luk? I would be happy, to see some comments, especially to my theory about the restoration and the blade itself. Thank you for reading; I hope it was not too boring and many thanks for every comment. Best wishes, Roland Attached Images

6th October 2015, 02:48 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Blade Hello Roland, To me this blade clearly has 11 luks (the tip is worn-out) and it looks javanese, may be in Pengging style because of the deep luks. It is a pity that the ganja is missing! Regards

8th October 2015, 12:45 PM	#14
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Alan, I'm far away from being an expert for Keris like you. My simple opinion is, that the blade is older than the hilt and sheath. The blade fits very exactly in the sheath, so I think it could be the original blade for this Coteng. If this would help, I can make some makro-pictures from different angles. Thank you for your very valuable comments. I'm also very thankful, if you correct my opinion, with your expert knowledge. Many collectors including myself have a tendency to admire their own blades more than they are worth with a more objective point of view. Roland Last edited by Roland_M; 8th October 2015 at 01:05 PM.

8th October 2015, 10:56 PM	#19
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Some additional pictures of the blade. I think the curvature in both directions is good to see. Attached Images

29th October 2015, 09:32 AM	#21
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Coteng Interesting Coteng....

6th October 2015, 03:56 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	I suppose the hilt repair is done locally. The Sogokan are a bit long for a Javanese blade. Nice hilt, even with a repair.

6th October 2015, 07:01 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	A very nice silver coteng hilt. The sheath repair is well done, but i really couldn't comment as to whether or not it was a local or European repair. Not exactly a "restoration" as missing pieces of the sheath have not been restored, but it has a nice quality look over all. It is a shame about the missing gonjo. I personally have a hard time getting too excited about incomplete blades. You might be able to commission a replacement if the keris is an important one for you. On luks i would count this as 11. The tip had obviously suffered some erosion to account for the confusion on your count. I am afraid i don't understand what you mean by your comparison to Keris Pejetan. I see nothing in your blade from these photographs that looks like impressed fingertips.

6th October 2015, 11:34 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Roland, agree, it's a very interesting coteng with all the repairs, equal if done locally or later in Europe. And I agree with the others, clearly a 11 luk blade, the last curve is worn. And a very good observation from Gustav, the blade don't need to be a Java blade, it look more like an old Palembang blade IMVHO. To bad that the gonjo is missing. David, I think that Roland mean with the comparison to pejetan that the blade has a sinus like wave along the length, I have seen this before and think that there is name also for a blade like this. Regards, Detlef

7th October 2015, 12:24 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	In respect of blade origin:- I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin. True, the sogokan are a little longer than usual for Jawa, but I have seen innumerable examples of variation from the norm in Javanese blades, and Balinese also, for that matter, not only in sogokan, but in all possible ways. Personally, I'd be happy to accept this as Javanese until it could be shown to be other than that.

7th October 2015, 01:10 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	That what is left of the Ricikan details is insufficient for me to speculate about the orgin of this blade. Yet - if blades from Malay Peninsula do have Sogokan, it tend to be long.

7th October 2015, 10:53 PM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Thanks for all the comments. Detlef (sajen) explained very well what I tried to say with "curved in z-direction". There are 11 luk, thanks. I investigated the blade with a microscope and it is very deeply corroded but the tip itself seems to have its original length. Hard to judge. I will leave the blade as it is, it is too late for a repolishing. My guess about the European restoration is because I believe, a silversmith in Indonesia knows how a Keris Coteng must look. Whatever, it is a felicitous restoration in my eyes. Roland

8th October 2015, 09:03 AM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	As I wrote, because of the state of the blade in question I am not able to say, where this blade has been made. I have named almost only one still readable Ricikan feature, and this feature, together with dress, allow to think of Malay Peninsula as one of possible origin places of this blade. Now I would like to hear some equally valid arguments for Java as origin of it, as, I quote, most of us seem to agree, this blade was originated in Java.

8th October 2015, 10:08 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Gustav, I do not believe that anybody has said that this blade could not have originated in the Peninsula, and speaking for myself, I am quite prepared to accept the possibility of Peninsula origin, or Kalimantan origin, or South Sumatran origin, or origin in almost any place in SE Asia. However my opinion is that there is nothing at all in the make-up of this blade that would prevent it from originating in Jawa, as I wrote:- "I can see nothing in this blade that would militate against a Javanese origin." Jean has said:- "It looks Javanese" Detlef thinks it looks like a Palembang blade. Once again, simply opinions. You have expressed your opinion that it could be Peninsula. We all have different opinions, and to attempt to construct any sort of logical argument to support any point of origin, when all we have are photos on several different computer monitors would seem to me to be not only pointless in this case, but without question, impossible. Personally, I don't want to change anybody's opinion, most especially since it seems that none of us hold our individual opinions with very much conviction. I will make one further comment. It is not the condition of the blade , nor the erosion of the blade features that is the problem in any attempt to be too definite about this blade origin. The problem is that the blade has several features which do not really fit together very well:- the ada-ada is a high ridge that continues to the point, the blumbangan is boto rubuh, the gandhik looks like something from Lombok or further east, pamor appears to be sanak, the wave form is similar to that which many people usually associate with Pengging or even Pajang. In fact, we're looking at a dog's breakfast of various styles. Overall, yes, Javanese, based on pawakan, but one place where this assemblage of various styles does occur fairly frequently is Borneo, ie, Brunei and Kalimantan. More opinions are always welcome, but let us not try to support an opinion that cannot be supported.

8th October 2015, 12:29 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Alan, thank you very much for your detailed response - my thoughts are very similar, if not almost the same. Dear All, I think, we should try to avoid a swift attribution without proper looking at the parameters of blade. Of course it is almost not worth all the trouble in this case, yet it always is a good exercise.

8th October 2015, 12:44 PM	#13
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan. I would like to add 2 observations: . From the pics the blade does not seem to properly fit into the scabbard (sinking & floating into the slot and with a different angle), so this kris is probably a dealer's montage? . According to a well-known javanese kris book written by Koesni in 1979, a long sogokan is an indicator of tangguh Pajang but we know how incertain it is... Gustav, could you please show us a similar wavy blade attributed to the Malay Peninsula? Regards

8th October 2015, 12:59 PM	#15
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	"In most cases, if the owner of this keris had the money, a new sheath would have been commissioned. It this case it would seem they did not. " David, this makes sense. But the quality of the silver work is on a high level, I almost think, a new sheath would be cheaper than such a silverwork. The upper ring was lost, I gave the sheath to a jeweller and he took ~75$ for only one silver ring. All I can say for sure is that it is a quite old restoration because of the thick black patina, the surface of the silver is full of tiny pitting. Roland

8th October 2015, 06:51 PM	#17
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Gustav, Thank you for the link to this old thread. Regarding the origin of this blade and considering its poor condition & missing ganja, I am not asserting anything but just giving my modest opinion in order to initiate the discussion... Regards

8th October 2015, 10:02 PM	#18
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Hello Jean, I understand, thank you for clarification. Regards

31st October 2015, 07:00 PM	#22
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris My Thai collector comment is that the Silver coteng was made in Indonesia...maybe 40-50'years ago...