what mandau is this?

Green · 18th August 2015, 02:39 PM

Hi;

Sorry for these seemingly basic questions about mandaus

1) Can one determine where a mandou comes from based on decoration and shape of the hilts eg, Serawak orang Ulu? Iban? etc? Kalimantan ?

2) Can one determine if a mandau is made for ceremonial dancing or mainly utilised for head hunting (in case of old antique mandaus)

3) It has been explained that mandaus that have been used for headhunting in the old days (19th century /older) are marked with 'notches' at the base near the hilt? can anyone show examples of this.

I have here a mandau (not a particulary good one) which has a typical concave and convex blade sides , a scabbard that looks quite old with varnish peeled off and showed some patina but I guess was made in mid 20th century based on the plastic ropes with green tassels attached. (may have been later addition though). The hilt is carved with elephant trunk motif. Can anyone identify where is this likely made?

There are 4 notches at the base of the hilt , I don't presume these are notches of heads taken as they look too well made and I guess they are merely another form of decoration.

Green · 18th August 2015, 02:41 PM

here are the notches i meant.

Roland_M · 18th August 2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

here are the notches i meant.

Hello Green,

1: I would say a nice Kayan mandau, but I'm no expert.

2: A head hunting mandau is thick at the base, sharp, quite heavy, forward balanced, often "decorated" with nicks and has a concave/convex blade. The best head hunting mandau are made from clay tempered, laminated high quality steel with a beautiful hamon. I have one of these

.

3: I heard, that the number of brass points in many mandau are equal to the number of "purloined" heads.

Roland

Green · 18th August 2015, 05:21 PM

Roland;

Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2015, 06:06 PM

While my knowledge on these and many of the Indonesian, SE Asian forms is admittedly quite limited, from discussions over the years here, it seems that the concept of 'notching' signifying some sort of tally for heads taken is a rather 'perceived' western notion . It is the same for the brass filled holes in the blade.
Actually the brass filled holes seem to correspond in some degree to this practice in many ethnographic settings; in Arab/Mamluk swords there were often a number of brass or gold filled holes in the blade which are believed likely to be talismanic for good fortune and power to the wielder . This same type of practice is found in North Africa as well as in Europe in degree in varying cases, actual meanings unknown.

As far as the notches in the back of the blade, these of course are believed significant symbolically though not in a tally sense. It seems these occur in many SE Asian dha, and in my own experience, the same type lines, sometimes diagonal, are tribally aligned (in one I had which was traced to a Hmong tribe in a Laotian context, Montagnard from Viet Nam, 60s).

Headhunting itself was of course outlawed in the early 20th century, but naturally old traditions may remain in degree in more remote regions.

The idea of regional attribution with any degree of certainty is a very slippery slope indeed with ethnographic arms, though one might find a certain proclivity of form or decoration to a defined area. There are I believe some good images in the Holstein reference from 1930s (cant recall the title offhand, but Im sure the much more informed group here who collect these can help out).

Ian · 19th August 2015, 06:23 AM

Jim:

I agree strongly with the idea that brass inlays of the face of blades are probably of talismanic importance or purely decorative. They are found occasionally in mainland SE Asian blades, as well as some from southern China (Yunnan). I have several dha/daab/dao with inserted dots towards the tip. The "notches" on the back of these swords are a relatively recent phenomenon and purely decorative (according to native informants). Since the bronze inserts are part of forging the blade, it is highly unlikely they indicate what would happen when the blade was used subsequently. Likewise the file work and copper or bronze inserts on the spine of the blade are put there at the time the blade is made.

The idea that these features represent some tally of kills or heads taken is not supported facts, and yet the notion continues to be spread, perhaps as a marketing tool by a few sellers of these items.

I think it is important that this Forum debunks such myths as often as they come up. I mean no disrespect to Roland_M or Green in raising this point. They are not alone in having heard these rumors, and I want to thank them for raising the issue again just so we can remind our readers of the facts as they have emerged in these pages over the years.

There is always the possibility that what has been stated as "factual" may not be universally true. If anyone has firm ethnographic evidence that a SE Asian culture kept "score" of an individual's kills or heads taken by marking his weapon, then please report it here--it would be important new information.

A further note on mandau. The reports of early travelers in Borneo noted that individual natives usually owned several mandau. These were all purpose tools and weapons that were made by the respective owner. Within an individual's arsenal there could be wide variation in decoration, carving, weight, length, etc. A tribal leader might have 20 or more mandau.

Ian.

Maurice · 19th August 2015, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

1) Can one determine where a mandou comes from based on decoration and shape of the hilts eg, Serawak orang Ulu? Iban? etc? Kalimantan ?

This mandau is from the upper Mahakam area, Central Borneo, kayan tribes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

2) Can one determine if a mandau is made for ceremonial dancing or mainly utilised for head hunting (in case of old antique mandaus)

If this mandau was an old one, it would have been used for everyday tasks of which an axe would be too rough and a knife would be too small.
When dayaks went for travel, they used their average mandau, which was used for cutting branches, and also for headhunting when the opportunity arose. Dayaks had several mandaus, but always took one with them on expeditions.
The mandaus with beautifull inlaid blades, often were used as "show off" weapons, but also with these it can not be ruled out that branches had been cut with these to get through the jungle, and ofcourse also with these mandaus heads had been taken....
Other mandaus had been used for other occasions, like dancing, ceremonies, offerings, weddinggifts, graves and other rituals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

3) It has been explained that mandaus that have been used for headhunting in the old days (19th century /older) are marked with 'notches' at the base near the hilt? can anyone show examples of this.

These notches at the base, where the edge begins, had been made by the smith right away. And not later when it had been used for headhunting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

I have here a mandau (not a particulary good one) which has a typical concave and convex blade sides , a scabbard that looks quite old with varnish peeled off and showed some patina but I guess was made in mid 20th century based on the plastic ropes with green tassels attached. (may have been later addition though). The hilt is carved with elephant trunk motif. Can anyone identify where is this likely made?

Looking at all aspects of your mandau, I think it even could be more recent as mid 20th century. The hilt, though in good porportions, had been carved very "clumsy" in my opinion. Also the blade is different as the old blades I have seen of this type.

Also I agree with Ian and Jim. The inlay of the blades had been done during the whole forging proces of the blade, and not afterwards.
But besides of that, sometimes there could be other traces, put on later as a "decoration" to show heads have been taken with the blade. These "headhunting" marks are divergent and much less in quantity as the many brass dots we sometimes see on mandaublades.
The beautifull Longglat blades, with beautifull portrusions and many inlaid motifs and dots of silver, brass, suassa or even gold, where well known and also traded with dayaks from other tribes.
It would be not likely to trade heavily decorated inlaid blades when they took heads with it. This because dayaks would never dare to possess a blade which would be too powerfull for them, because they took many heads with it. And secondly it isn't likely that a dayak which has a "loaded" mandau because he took a head with it, would ever sell his blade to other dayaks for trading....

Green · 19th August 2015, 04:16 PM

Maurice;

Excellent and Many thanks for the very clear comments.

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2015, 06:17 PM

Ian, thank you so much for your well reasoned and perfectly explained observations on the distinctive and ever curious features of these swords. What you note on the inlay and the later decorative aspects are absolutely spot on, and I honestly had not thought of those factors yet!
It is great to have the perspective of one who has the nuanced knowledge of these fascinating weapons and the cultures who used them.

I very much like the point that you make on the often colorful embellishments and romanticized lore which are so typically engrained in so many weapons forms. While as collectors we are of course drawn to these kinds of tales which so deeply color the very weapons that fascinate and intrigue us, it is rewarding to establish truth and preserve it along with the tales in many cases. These are the historical and cultural details which we work toward.

Maurice brings up another well made point toward the 'tally' tales, there was powerful belief and tradition with regard to the taking of heads, which of course would be of more metaphysical perspective (in our sense). The forces and imbuement in accord with these acts would indeed render these very weapons extremely powerful, and physical 'recording' of such would seem very much unnecessary.

As far as I have known, in most cultures, the death of an enemy or opponent is not cause for celebration, in fact such victories often bring most feared results if not properly attended. It seems among some African tribes a weapon which has killed is often ceremonially 'quarantined' for a short time. While I cannot recall these details offhand, the notion that killing is a cause for celebration is far removed from reality in most cases.

Even in the 'west' here in the U.S. the taking of scalps was not an inherent American Indian practice but was brought about by colonial settlers offering a 'bounty' for scalps as proof of victorious 'elimination' of enemy. Such gruesome 'scorekeeping' is very much the product of more modern warfare.

Returning to 'notches' I agree that these must have been applied as the blade was produced, and perhaps might have been makers markings or possibly tribal associations etc. . Once again with reference to the 'west', the notion of gunfighters notching their guns, this was purely fabricated and as far as I have known, not a single gunfighter among the 'legends' ever notched their guns, nor would they so deface their trusted weapons.

Ian and Maurice thank you so much for adding all this information and perspective on these here! It does seem the information on these is somewhat sparse, and it is good to have reliable data from those who have truly studied these in depth.

Maurice, great notes on classifying region and tribal origins! Can you say more on the features or characteristics that so specify? Are there any published resources which might have this kind of data catalogued or addressed in detail?

Thanks again!!! and thank you Green for posting this and Roland for your also interesting input.....it would seem you know a bit more about these than you say as your identification was right in line with Maurice's

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2015, 12:00 AM

First the disclaimer:-

I do not collect, nor do I study mandau, I understand very little about them.

An excellent source to assist in an understanding of the people of Borneo is:- "Naga dan Burung Enggang (Hornbill and Dragon)", Bernard Sellato, ISBN: 979-8112-00-8

In this book there are a number of photos of mandau hilts that are identified by tribe.

The people of Borneo retained Maritime SE Asian traditions for much longer than people in most other areas, because of this we can now understand the roots of some practices in other parts of MSE Asia. For instance, in respect of mandau, although the blade was made by skilled craftsman, the hilt and scabbard were normally made by the owner. The carving of the hilt in particular was an important function of display for younger men, it served as the male equivalent of the female attribute of weaving, and demonstrated that the carver did have a finer side, apart from his required ability to take heads. There have always been skilled carvers and unskilled carvers:- quality of workmanship in a hilt is not necessarily an indicator of age.

Dyak women were/are like women everywhere:- they want a provider and defender but they also want that provider and defender to be able to recite Lord Byron and play a lute --- well, so to speak. The taking of heads was evidence of one, the carving of the hilt was evidence of the other.

Considering Jawa, in much earlier times the hilts of keris would have been carved by the owners of the keris, not by specialised craftsmen. Apart from the display function, there was also the consideration of tribute to an ancestor, both of these functions outweighing the obvious economic benefits of carving one's own hilt.

Taking of heads may have been outlawed a long time ago, but it was still a common practice in Kalimantan during the 1960's and 1970's, and during the 1990's the Madurese settlers who were relocated to Kalimantan (the Transmigrasi policy) were also subjected to having their heads transferred to Dyak ownership

Battara · 20th August 2015, 12:45 AM

I hate to disagree with Ian and Maurice, but I don't believe that the brass/bronze can be made during the forging process. Forging steel has to be done at such high temperatures that the bronze/brass material would be molten. It is too soft for this process, and therefore must be inserted after the steel forging process. Only then can one engrave holes or grooves to which the bronze/brass can be hammered.

Ian · 20th August 2015, 05:23 AM

Jose:

Yes, you are correct, as usual, about the decoration of these blades. What I should have said was that the dots and other brass ornaments are placed there at the time the blade is manufactured/forged (not during the actual forging process). Similarly, the file and chisel work are done by a skilled metal worker at the same time. So basically all of the blade's decoration is done before the hilt is attached and the sword is used.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I hate to disagree with Ian and Maurice, but I don't believe that the brass/bronze can be made during the forging process. Forging steel has to be done at such high temperatures that the bronze/brass material would be molten. It is too soft for this process, and therefore must be inserted after the steel forging process. Only then can one engrave holes or grooves to which the bronze/brass can be hammered.

Maurice · 20th August 2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I hate to disagree with Ian and Maurice, but I don't believe that the brass/bronze can be made during the forging process. Forging steel has to be done at such high temperatures that the bronze/brass material would be molten. It is too soft for this process, and therefore must be inserted after the steel forging process. Only then can one engrave holes or grooves to which the bronze/brass can be hammered.

Yes Jose you are right, I expressed wrongly here and there the misunderstanding began. I meant when "producing" a blade. The holes are made and after the forging proces, and than filled with brass.
When "deliver" the blade to the new owner, the inlay is allready there, and not done afterwards when heads had been taken.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

PS you can find this in clear photos when such blade is in progress in the Nieuwenhuis "bible".

Maurice · 20th August 2015, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For instance, in respect of mandau, although the blade was made by skilled craftsman, the hilt and scabbard were normally made by the owner.

There also were skilled craftsman available for hilts and scabbards.
They all have been made according a certain standard, in line with the adat, and not every dayak was able to carve like this.

Maurice · 20th August 2015, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There have always been skilled carvers and unskilled carvers:- quality of workmanship in a hilt is not necessarily an indicator of age.

Yes that is absolutely true.
But in this specific handle which Green depicted, it is obviously the case.
Here the quality of workmanship is an indicator of age I'm afraid.

The same can be said about the blade by the way.....

Maurice · 20th August 2015, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Maurice, great notes on classifying region and tribal origins! Can you say more on the features or characteristics that so specify? Are there any published resources which might have this kind of data catalogued or addressed in detail?

Hi Jim,

it is the style of the handle and scabbard.
This "style" can be found in the Nieuwenhuis (1219- Leiden museum)collection for instance, collected by himself during one of his expeditions in that particular area.
Also other travellers collected the same kind of mandau in the same area.
And old photos with dayaks from that area wearing a similar type of mandau ofcourse also helps a lot.

Kind regards,
Maurice

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2015, 02:11 PM

Maurice, my previous post was not an attempt to argue with you, I am not equipped to argue about mandaus, and my disclaimer at the beginning of my post says it all.

However, I can read, and what I have written is information that I have garnered from a number of anthropological works that I have read over a long period of time. I have only repeated what professionals in the field have written.

Yes, I agree that within the later Dyak community there were and are skilled carvers who worked and work for others, just as there were, and are, skilled weavers who sell the product of their labour, however, in the traditional framework of Dyak society the ability to carve was the male balance to the female equivalent of weaving, and as such it played an important role in the selection of a mate, and the continuation of the viability of the group.

It may seem strange that although I have not the slightest interest in mandaus, I should remember information relating to the sociological relationships of the mandau. The reason for this is that what we see in Dyak society is very probably the foundation pattern for most, if not all MSE Asian societies, and the position of the hilt and its personal manufacture in the traditional framework of the Dyak society does much to explain a number of things that have puzzled students of the keris for a very long time.

As for the age of the specific piece under discussion, I made no comment directed at that piece, and I make none now.

Maurice · 20th August 2015, 02:50 PM

Alan, I didn't had the feeling you were arguing with me.
And if so I have no problem discussing.

I have several good friends, who also have lots of knowledge in the field, and even amongst them one is a doctor/anthropologist, with whom I discuss often.
For myself (and several other Borneo collectorfriends), we stick to the old books and facts. As nowadays even in Borneo don't know anymore how things were back than. On a regularly base we see our private collection pieces copied by carvers (who probably also looked at the forums), and trying to sell them on facebook or other sources.
I even once had been offered a mandau I have here hanging at my wall!

My earlier statement about the handle- and scabbard carvers are from the work of Nieuwenhuis himself, who did his expedition in the old days (he was the first who travelled Borneo from West to East). He also was an anthropologist and he describes in his work how things worked before 1900.
I will try to translate a passage as good as possible:

"However the Kayans are foreigners in the Kapoeas area, they made dayaks from surrounding areas dependent because of their art, such as carved antler handles.
The antler handles carved by Mendalam kayans, were very wanted by others living in the Kapoeas area, and they paid richly for it.
There are more tribes who were able to carve these handles, but only the Kayans excel in this art and their decorative hilts were immidiately recognised.
Almost all men are able to carve simple wooden hilts for their swords, of which they used hard dark wood. But only a few are able to internalize a higher level in this art. And besides that, also it was only allowed to carve antler handles if the carver did make several expeditions.
The youth were allowed to practice carving handles on wood and apebones.
Besides the hilts, also the scabbards had been traded outside their area."

PS. I ofcourse was aware that as for the age of the specific piece under discussion, you made no comment. But I wanted just to mention it looking at this piece directly, because that is where this thread had been started, and as explanation to Green.

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2015, 10:06 AM

Thanks for your response Maurice, I'm pleased that you did not interpret my remarks as argumentative, they certainly were not intended to be, but could easily have been interpreted so, even though there is no essential difference between your remarks and my own. There was a difference in phrasing, but you have clarified that.

Thank you also for your translation.

Roland_M · 21st August 2015, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Roland;

Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

Hello Green

Quite late, I'm sorry, i have a summer flu, but here it is. I will introduce it in a few weeks with better pictures.

The laminated structure and hamon are a little weak but still good to see.

The deep polish was neccesary, because the previous owner used an angle grinder to remove the rust.

Roland

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2015, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Jim,

it is the style of the handle and scabbard.
This "style" can be found in the Nieuwenhuis (1219- Leiden museum)collection for instance, collected by himself during one of his expeditions in that particular area.
Also other travellers collected the same kind of mandau in the same area.
And old photos with dayaks from that area wearing a similar type of mandau ofcourse also helps a lot.

Kind regards,
Maurice

Maurice thank you so much for the courteous and informative reply, as well as noting reference. I have noticed over time that you have significant knowledge and exposure to these and a number of other forms of this ethnographic field, and your input here is greatly appreciated.

All best regards,
Jim

Green · 22nd August 2015, 08:36 AM

Roland M;

Many thanks for the pics. But can you inform what makes you say that this is a headhunting mandau? any particular charateristics unique to this or just historical fact and provenance? would love to get further clarification.

Sorry to hear about the flu. hope you'll get well soon.

Maurice · 24th August 2015, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your response Maurice, I'm pleased that you did not interpret my remarks as argumentative, they certainly were not intended to be, but could easily have been interpreted so, even though there is no essential difference between your remarks and my own. There was a difference in phrasing, but you have clarified that.

Thank you also for your translation.

You're welcome Alan!

The Nieuwenhuis volumes unfortunately are not available (as far as I know) in English, but only in Dutch and German language, but it has some very beautifull old pictures in it taken during his expedition.
It would be worth having only because of the pictures, even if you would not understand the text. (I attached an image from one of the volumes, where you can see blades during manufacturing).

Kind regards,
Maurice

Maurice · 24th August 2015, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Maurice thank you so much for the courteous and informative reply, as well as noting reference. I have noticed over time that you have significant knowledge and exposure to these and a number of other forms of this ethnographic field, and your input here is greatly appreciated.

All best regards,
Jim

Thank you for your kind words Jim!
Just like all of us here, most of us are all interested in a specific area of collecting, although we all love swords.
For me this specific area is Borneo, so besides Borneo swords, I try to "collect" also as much information as I can find, and research as many old collections as I am able to...

Kind regards,
Maurice

18th August 2015, 02:39 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	what mandau is this? Hi; Sorry for these seemingly basic questions about mandaus 1) Can one determine where a mandou comes from based on decoration and shape of the hilts eg, Serawak orang Ulu? Iban? etc? Kalimantan ? 2) Can one determine if a mandau is made for ceremonial dancing or mainly utilised for head hunting (in case of old antique mandaus) 3) It has been explained that mandaus that have been used for headhunting in the old days (19th century /older) are marked with 'notches' at the base near the hilt? can anyone show examples of this. I have here a mandau (not a particulary good one) which has a typical concave and convex blade sides , a scabbard that looks quite old with varnish peeled off and showed some patina but I guess was made in mid 20th century based on the plastic ropes with green tassels attached. (may have been later addition though). The hilt is carved with elephant trunk motif. Can anyone identify where is this likely made? There are 4 notches at the base of the hilt , I don't presume these are notches of heads taken as they look too well made and I guess they are merely another form of decoration. Attached Images

18th August 2015, 02:41 PM	#2
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	here are the notches i meant. Attached Images

19th August 2015, 06:17 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Ian, thank you so much for your well reasoned and perfectly explained observations on the distinctive and ever curious features of these swords. What you note on the inlay and the later decorative aspects are absolutely spot on, and I honestly had not thought of those factors yet! It is great to have the perspective of one who has the nuanced knowledge of these fascinating weapons and the cultures who used them. I very much like the point that you make on the often colorful embellishments and romanticized lore which are so typically engrained in so many weapons forms. While as collectors we are of course drawn to these kinds of tales which so deeply color the very weapons that fascinate and intrigue us, it is rewarding to establish truth and preserve it along with the tales in many cases. These are the historical and cultural details which we work toward. Maurice brings up another well made point toward the 'tally' tales, there was powerful belief and tradition with regard to the taking of heads, which of course would be of more metaphysical perspective (in our sense). The forces and imbuement in accord with these acts would indeed render these very weapons extremely powerful, and physical 'recording' of such would seem very much unnecessary. As far as I have known, in most cultures, the death of an enemy or opponent is not cause for celebration, in fact such victories often bring most feared results if not properly attended. It seems among some African tribes a weapon which has killed is often ceremonially 'quarantined' for a short time. While I cannot recall these details offhand, the notion that killing is a cause for celebration is far removed from reality in most cases. Even in the 'west' here in the U.S. the taking of scalps was not an inherent American Indian practice but was brought about by colonial settlers offering a 'bounty' for scalps as proof of victorious 'elimination' of enemy. Such gruesome 'scorekeeping' is very much the product of more modern warfare. Returning to 'notches' I agree that these must have been applied as the blade was produced, and perhaps might have been makers markings or possibly tribal associations etc. . Once again with reference to the 'west', the notion of gunfighters notching their guns, this was purely fabricated and as far as I have known, not a single gunfighter among the 'legends' ever notched their guns, nor would they so deface their trusted weapons. Ian and Maurice thank you so much for adding all this information and perspective on these here! It does seem the information on these is somewhat sparse, and it is good to have reliable data from those who have truly studied these in depth. Maurice, great notes on classifying region and tribal origins! Can you say more on the features or characteristics that so specify? Are there any published resources which might have this kind of data catalogued or addressed in detail? Thanks again!!! and thank you Green for posting this and Roland for your also interesting input.....it would seem you know a bit more about these than you say as your identification was right in line with Maurice's Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th August 2015 at 06:31 PM.

18th August 2015, 05:21 PM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Roland; Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

18th August 2015, 06:06 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	While my knowledge on these and many of the Indonesian, SE Asian forms is admittedly quite limited, from discussions over the years here, it seems that the concept of 'notching' signifying some sort of tally for heads taken is a rather 'perceived' western notion . It is the same for the brass filled holes in the blade. Actually the brass filled holes seem to correspond in some degree to this practice in many ethnographic settings; in Arab/Mamluk swords there were often a number of brass or gold filled holes in the blade which are believed likely to be talismanic for good fortune and power to the wielder . This same type of practice is found in North Africa as well as in Europe in degree in varying cases, actual meanings unknown. As far as the notches in the back of the blade, these of course are believed significant symbolically though not in a tally sense. It seems these occur in many SE Asian dha, and in my own experience, the same type lines, sometimes diagonal, are tribally aligned (in one I had which was traced to a Hmong tribe in a Laotian context, Montagnard from Viet Nam, 60s). Headhunting itself was of course outlawed in the early 20th century, but naturally old traditions may remain in degree in more remote regions. The idea of regional attribution with any degree of certainty is a very slippery slope indeed with ethnographic arms, though one might find a certain proclivity of form or decoration to a defined area. There are I believe some good images in the Holstein reference from 1930s (cant recall the title offhand, but Im sure the much more informed group here who collect these can help out).

19th August 2015, 06:23 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,202	Jim: I agree strongly with the idea that brass inlays of the face of blades are probably of talismanic importance or purely decorative. They are found occasionally in mainland SE Asian blades, as well as some from southern China (Yunnan). I have several dha/daab/dao with inserted dots towards the tip. The "notches" on the back of these swords are a relatively recent phenomenon and purely decorative (according to native informants). Since the bronze inserts are part of forging the blade, it is highly unlikely they indicate what would happen when the blade was used subsequently. Likewise the file work and copper or bronze inserts on the spine of the blade are put there at the time the blade is made. The idea that these features represent some tally of kills or heads taken is not supported facts, and yet the notion continues to be spread, perhaps as a marketing tool by a few sellers of these items. I think it is important that this Forum debunks such myths as often as they come up. I mean no disrespect to Roland_M or Green in raising this point. They are not alone in having heard these rumors, and I want to thank them for raising the issue again just so we can remind our readers of the facts as they have emerged in these pages over the years. There is always the possibility that what has been stated as "factual" may not be universally true. If anyone has firm ethnographic evidence that a SE Asian culture kept "score" of an individual's kills or heads taken by marking his weapon, then please report it here--it would be important new information. A further note on mandau. The reports of early travelers in Borneo noted that individual natives usually owned several mandau. These were all purpose tools and weapons that were made by the respective owner. Within an individual's arsenal there could be wide variation in decoration, carving, weight, length, etc. A tribal leader might have 20 or more mandau. Ian.

19th August 2015, 04:16 PM	#8
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Maurice; Excellent and Many thanks for the very clear comments.

20th August 2015, 12:00 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	First the disclaimer:- I do not collect, nor do I study mandau, I understand very little about them. An excellent source to assist in an understanding of the people of Borneo is:- "Naga dan Burung Enggang (Hornbill and Dragon)", Bernard Sellato, ISBN: 979-8112-00-8 In this book there are a number of photos of mandau hilts that are identified by tribe. The people of Borneo retained Maritime SE Asian traditions for much longer than people in most other areas, because of this we can now understand the roots of some practices in other parts of MSE Asia. For instance, in respect of mandau, although the blade was made by skilled craftsman, the hilt and scabbard were normally made by the owner. The carving of the hilt in particular was an important function of display for younger men, it served as the male equivalent of the female attribute of weaving, and demonstrated that the carver did have a finer side, apart from his required ability to take heads. There have always been skilled carvers and unskilled carvers:- quality of workmanship in a hilt is not necessarily an indicator of age. Dyak women were/are like women everywhere:- they want a provider and defender but they also want that provider and defender to be able to recite Lord Byron and play a lute --- well, so to speak. The taking of heads was evidence of one, the carving of the hilt was evidence of the other. Considering Jawa, in much earlier times the hilts of keris would have been carved by the owners of the keris, not by specialised craftsmen. Apart from the display function, there was also the consideration of tribute to an ancestor, both of these functions outweighing the obvious economic benefits of carving one's own hilt. Taking of heads may have been outlawed a long time ago, but it was still a common practice in Kalimantan during the 1960's and 1970's, and during the 1990's the Madurese settlers who were relocated to Kalimantan (the Transmigrasi policy) were also subjected to having their heads transferred to Dyak ownership

20th August 2015, 12:45 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I hate to disagree with Ian and Maurice, but I don't believe that the brass/bronze can be made during the forging process. Forging steel has to be done at such high temperatures that the bronze/brass material would be molten. It is too soft for this process, and therefore must be inserted after the steel forging process. Only then can one engrave holes or grooves to which the bronze/brass can be hammered.

20th August 2015, 02:11 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Maurice, my previous post was not an attempt to argue with you, I am not equipped to argue about mandaus, and my disclaimer at the beginning of my post says it all. However, I can read, and what I have written is information that I have garnered from a number of anthropological works that I have read over a long period of time. I have only repeated what professionals in the field have written. Yes, I agree that within the later Dyak community there were and are skilled carvers who worked and work for others, just as there were, and are, skilled weavers who sell the product of their labour, however, in the traditional framework of Dyak society the ability to carve was the male balance to the female equivalent of weaving, and as such it played an important role in the selection of a mate, and the continuation of the viability of the group. It may seem strange that although I have not the slightest interest in mandaus, I should remember information relating to the sociological relationships of the mandau. The reason for this is that what we see in Dyak society is very probably the foundation pattern for most, if not all MSE Asian societies, and the position of the hilt and its personal manufacture in the traditional framework of the Dyak society does much to explain a number of things that have puzzled students of the keris for a very long time. As for the age of the specific piece under discussion, I made no comment directed at that piece, and I make none now.

20th August 2015, 02:50 PM	#18
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Alan, I didn't had the feeling you were arguing with me. And if so I have no problem discussing. I have several good friends, who also have lots of knowledge in the field, and even amongst them one is a doctor/anthropologist, with whom I discuss often. For myself (and several other Borneo collectorfriends), we stick to the old books and facts. As nowadays even in Borneo don't know anymore how things were back than. On a regularly base we see our private collection pieces copied by carvers (who probably also looked at the forums), and trying to sell them on facebook or other sources. I even once had been offered a mandau I have here hanging at my wall! My earlier statement about the handle- and scabbard carvers are from the work of Nieuwenhuis himself, who did his expedition in the old days (he was the first who travelled Borneo from West to East). He also was an anthropologist and he describes in his work how things worked before 1900. I will try to translate a passage as good as possible: "However the Kayans are foreigners in the Kapoeas area, they made dayaks from surrounding areas dependent because of their art, such as carved antler handles. The antler handles carved by Mendalam kayans, were very wanted by others living in the Kapoeas area, and they paid richly for it. There are more tribes who were able to carve these handles, but only the Kayans excel in this art and their decorative hilts were immidiately recognised. Almost all men are able to carve simple wooden hilts for their swords, of which they used hard dark wood. But only a few are able to internalize a higher level in this art. And besides that, also it was only allowed to carve antler handles if the carver did make several expeditions. The youth were allowed to practice carving handles on wood and apebones. Besides the hilts, also the scabbards had been traded outside their area." PS. I ofcourse was aware that as for the age of the specific piece under discussion, you made no comment. But I wanted just to mention it looking at this piece directly, because that is where this thread had been started, and as explanation to Green.

21st August 2015, 10:06 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thanks for your response Maurice, I'm pleased that you did not interpret my remarks as argumentative, they certainly were not intended to be, but could easily have been interpreted so, even though there is no essential difference between your remarks and my own. There was a difference in phrasing, but you have clarified that. Thank you also for your translation.

22nd August 2015, 08:36 AM	#22
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Roland M; Many thanks for the pics. But can you inform what makes you say that this is a headhunting mandau? any particular charateristics unique to this or just historical fact and provenance? would love to get further clarification. Sorry to hear about the flu. hope you'll get well soon.