Small Keris, dagger

JamesKelly · 31st August 2013, 06:43 PM

New guy, currently in Michigan, Midwestern USA. After a lifetime of accumulating American flint & percussion firearms I became infected by a miniature, 3" (76mm) long in the scabbard, Moroccan Koummya. Now, in part because I am a metallurgist, my cutlery inclinations tend to those blades having interesting metal. A Canadian dealer had a small Keris 9-3/4" (248mm) O.A., and a bone-handled dagger, supposedly from Madura, 12-9/16" (319mm) O.A. Guess the latter does not qualify as a Keris but, well, it is Indonesian and does have a layer-forged blade with Pamor. Also got a small kard with Mohammed's Ladder pattern in the wootz, no photos yet.

Currently lusting after a Bali Keris being sold by a dealer in Singapore. What might be the significance of the number of luks/bends? My callow taste is for a lot of them. Well, guess I've paid all my bills this month, so . . . and perhaps that will be about as far as my knife collection goes. We'll see.

And now this New Guy will wait patiently for the moderator to clear my photos.

David · 3rd September 2013, 04:14 AM

Hi James and welcome to the forum. I am surprised that no one has responded to your post yet, but perhaps i can get some discussion started.
Your keris seems to show some decent execution. Unfortunately it is missing a part called the "gonjo" (often spelled "ganja"). Please see the diagram here:
http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html
The gonjo is the separate piece of the blade that forms an asymmetric guard of sorts at the base of the blade.
The brass hilt cup you have here is obviously too large for the hilt and i would venture that the entire ensemble was a dealer assembly in order to make the piece more sellable. From this one photographic angle am not sure that i can recognize the hilt form. All of this makes it rather difficult to assign any origin for this keris. Given the size of this blade it could be what is called a "patrem", a keris made specifically for a woman, though the proportions of this blade seem a little odd and it is also possible the blade has been cut down from a larger size.

For more information on keris symbolism and possible reasons for different numbered luk blades i would suggest you give this a read:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html
You are right that the other weapon is not a keris, it is a tombak, a spearhead (probably Javanese) that has been mounted as a dagger. I would suggest that you post this to the main ethnographic forum for discussion as we only discuss keris on this board.

JamesKelly · 5th September 2013, 05:58 AM

I thank you, David. Had no idea how much I have to learn. I am accustomed to noticing restorations or defects in antique guns from some distance, obviously I'm a bit far from that where knives are concerned. I'd been reading Groneman, but that article by A.G. Maisey was, well, words fail me. My new library has grown faster than I can read. Think I'll read a bit before buying again. Well. . . there is what I hope is a real keris on its way now from Singapore. We'll see.

David · 7th September 2013, 03:16 AM

No worries James. We all have items in our collections that were lessons. Actually, yours is better than many first keris. It's incomplete and a bit of a mishmash, but at least the metal work shows some quality. I look forward to seeing what comes to you from Singapore.

JamesKelly · 15th October 2013, 10:41 PM

Back to former workplace Oct 10, got to use an X-ray fluoroscope, one that seems good on non-ferrous, not so sure about steel.

The little/oversize "brass" hilt ring analysis is:
67.6% copper; 20.84% zinc; 4.51% silicon; 3.25% tin; 2.33% lead; 1.21%iron and 0.18% phosphorus.

Perhaps a copper-alloy metallurgist can make something of this. If he studies copper alloys of Indonesia. The silicon surprises me, guess it would make the alloy fairly hard. Lead is usually added to make castings more sound, iron & phosphorus just residual impurities.

The blade is of course a mix of at least two different steel grades, some part of it is about 1% nickel, 0.13% phosphorus.

Rick · 15th October 2013, 11:00 PM

I'm wondering if the high copper content is supposed to differ the appearance of the finished product from brass ; perhaps a little closer to swaasa when viewed .

James, can we see more pictures of the keris hilt ?

Battara · 16th October 2013, 03:41 AM

Basically what you have here is brass. The rest are added for various reasons, perhaps some being impurities.

The main percentage of mix (roughly 88%) is copper and zinc = brass.

31st August 2013, 06:43 PM	#1
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Small Keris, dagger New guy, currently in Michigan, Midwestern USA. After a lifetime of accumulating American flint & percussion firearms I became infected by a miniature, 3" (76mm) long in the scabbard, Moroccan Koummya. Now, in part because I am a metallurgist, my cutlery inclinations tend to those blades having interesting metal. A Canadian dealer had a small Keris 9-3/4" (248mm) O.A., and a bone-handled dagger, supposedly from Madura, 12-9/16" (319mm) O.A. Guess the latter does not qualify as a Keris but, well, it is Indonesian and does have a layer-forged blade with Pamor. Also got a small kard with Mohammed's Ladder pattern in the wootz, no photos yet. Currently lusting after a Bali Keris being sold by a dealer in Singapore. What might be the significance of the number of luks/bends? My callow taste is for a lot of them. Well, guess I've paid all my bills this month, so . . . and perhaps that will be about as far as my knife collection goes. We'll see. And now this New Guy will wait patiently for the moderator to clear my photos. Attached Images

3rd September 2013, 04:14 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Hi James and welcome to the forum. I am surprised that no one has responded to your post yet, but perhaps i can get some discussion started. Your keris seems to show some decent execution. Unfortunately it is missing a part called the "gonjo" (often spelled "ganja"). Please see the diagram here: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html The gonjo is the separate piece of the blade that forms an asymmetric guard of sorts at the base of the blade. The brass hilt cup you have here is obviously too large for the hilt and i would venture that the entire ensemble was a dealer assembly in order to make the piece more sellable. From this one photographic angle am not sure that i can recognize the hilt form. All of this makes it rather difficult to assign any origin for this keris. Given the size of this blade it could be what is called a "patrem", a keris made specifically for a woman, though the proportions of this blade seem a little odd and it is also possible the blade has been cut down from a larger size. For more information on keris symbolism and possible reasons for different numbered luk blades i would suggest you give this a read: http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html You are right that the other weapon is not a keris, it is a tombak, a spearhead (probably Javanese) that has been mounted as a dagger. I would suggest that you post this to the main ethnographic forum for discussion as we only discuss keris on this board.

5th September 2013, 05:58 AM	#3
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	I thank you, David. Had no idea how much I have to learn. I am accustomed to noticing restorations or defects in antique guns from some distance, obviously I'm a bit far from that where knives are concerned. I'd been reading Groneman, but that article by A.G. Maisey was, well, words fail me. My new library has grown faster than I can read. Think I'll read a bit before buying again. Well. . . there is what I hope is a real keris on its way now from Singapore. We'll see.

7th September 2013, 03:16 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	No worries James. We all have items in our collections that were lessons. Actually, yours is better than many first keris. It's incomplete and a bit of a mishmash, but at least the metal work shows some quality. I look forward to seeing what comes to you from Singapore.

15th October 2013, 10:41 PM	#5
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Back to former workplace Oct 10, got to use an X-ray fluoroscope, one that seems good on non-ferrous, not so sure about steel. The little/oversize "brass" hilt ring analysis is: 67.6% copper; 20.84% zinc; 4.51% silicon; 3.25% tin; 2.33% lead; 1.21%iron and 0.18% phosphorus. Perhaps a copper-alloy metallurgist can make something of this. If he studies copper alloys of Indonesia. The silicon surprises me, guess it would make the alloy fairly hard. Lead is usually added to make castings more sound, iron & phosphorus just residual impurities. The blade is of course a mix of at least two different steel grades, some part of it is about 1% nickel, 0.13% phosphorus.

15th October 2013, 11:00 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I'm wondering if the high copper content is supposed to differ the appearance of the finished product from brass ; perhaps a little closer to swaasa when viewed . James, can we see more pictures of the keris hilt ?

16th October 2013, 03:41 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Basically what you have here is brass. The rest are added for various reasons, perhaps some being impurities. The main percentage of mix (roughly 88%) is copper and zinc = brass.