Hello, and help with yatagan

Klop · 2nd May 2014, 09:01 PM

Hello All,

first let me introduce myself, I am Eric from the Netherlands, i've been collecting things that cut since my youth, started serious collecting with Keris but in a few decades also got some other indonesian weapons, japanese, indian, middle eastern...and now some turkish I guess.

I signed up to tap into the collective knowledge about yatagan inscriptions, I recently bought one and cannot translate... I think it is a date - seems 4 digits- but I don't recognise the script, doesn't look like the arabic numerals. If anyone can tell me more about this I 'd be very happy. a reference to the script on the internet, maybe even the makers name from his stamp, region of fabrication, all info is wellcome.

The second piece is larger and heavier and has turkish ribbon forging. Dated 1275 = 1858 or 1859 if my research is correct. Below that may be a makers name? On both sides the ears on the pommel are missing, I wonder how these were originally. Maybe smaller ears or also separate pieces to form a T-handle?

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Eric.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th May 2014, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klop

Hello All,

first let me introduce myself, I am Eric from the Netherlands, i've been collecting things that cut since my youth, started serious collecting with Keris but in a few decades also got some other indonesian weapons, japanese, indian, middle eastern...and now some turkish I guess.

I signed up to tap into the collective knowledge about yatagan inscriptions, I recently bought one and cannot translate... I think it is a date - seems 4 digits- but I don't recognise the script, doesn't look like the arabic numerals. If anyone can tell me more about this I 'd be very happy. a reference to the script on the internet, maybe even the makers name from his stamp, region of fabrication, all info is wellcome.

The second piece is larger and heavier and has turkish ribbon forging. Dated 1275 = 1858 or 1859 if my research is correct. Below that may be a makers name? On both sides the ears on the pommel are missing, I wonder how these were originally. Maybe smaller ears or also separate pieces to form a T-handle?

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Eric.

Salaams Eric ...I think you have about nailed it... I think that it says Amal..made by...The dates look correct... The armoury stamp is worth tracing... Is that a St Irene stamp? Great pictures ...anyone out there who can help ...??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 10th May 2014, 01:41 PM

Both are likely to be Zeibek ones, from W. Anatolia, around Bursa. The first one has typical T-handle, the second one likely had them broken off, with only stumps remaining.
The second blade is typical Zeibek: heavy, simply concave ( not recurved) and with a T-spine. The first one may also be Zeibek, but a little strange: no T-spine. Happens.

And not, it is not a St. Irene stamp ( Kayi, old Oguz). Kayi looks like a trident.

Sancar · 10th May 2014, 04:04 PM

Commonly, most of those "zeybek" yatağans are older Anatolian yatağans (usually inherited from family elders) that were rehilted in this IMHO crude manner. I believe the first one is are such an example. Even that very poor attempt at decoration and the "yol"( the matal part that hides where blade mmets hilt) might be added later.

I fail to see the Kayı stamp that is usually can be found in every weapon that became a part of Cebehane(Ottoman Royal Armory) one time or another. No offense but these two are hardly Royal Armory material. Fun fact: Kayı stamp is originally stylized version of a Turkish bow strung with an arrow, that is between two arrows; and originally used to mark the live stock that belong ed to the Kayı clan. Other Turkmen clans have their own stamps. In tişme it became a dynasty symbol, and used to mark almost everything that belonged to the House of Osman, especially arms and armour. It also a symbol that represents that they did not forget their nomadic Oğuz Turkish roots.

Klop · 11th May 2014, 03:24 PM

Dear gents, thank you all for the information! I completely agree that these are not weapons for wealthy men, especially number 1 seems improvised at the hilt. Some canvas binding with hard resin of some sort. However as a weapon,it feels better than the other one. Number 1 is light and agile, the other feels clumsy more like an axe. Heavy but slow.

Any ideas on the insrciption next to the stamp in number one? which script could this be?

It is funny to see where these came from; next month i'm going to visit Istanbul which is just around the corner

Best regards,
Eric

Zifir · 14th May 2014, 04:06 PM

About the stamp.

Klop · 15th May 2014, 08:06 PM

Dear Zifir, thank you very much!
Best regards,
Eric.

Kubur · 15th May 2014, 10:17 PM

I wonder why we have so many references to Ali and Zulfiqar on Ottoman weapons: swords and firearms... someone know?

Sancar · 16th May 2014, 04:30 PM

Hz.Ali (r.a) has a special place in all muslims heart, whether they are sunni or shia.

And, in Turkish culture, Hz.Ali (r.a.) is viewed as the ideal example of a muslim warrior; that is why he is often referenced in arms and armour.

But in this case, I don't think the "Ali" in he stamp is a reference to Hz.Ali(r.a.); but just the maker's mark with the name of the bladesmith. Ali is a very common name in Turkey.

2nd May 2014, 09:01 PM	#1
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Hello, and help with yatagan Hello All, first let me introduce myself, I am Eric from the Netherlands, i've been collecting things that cut since my youth, started serious collecting with Keris but in a few decades also got some other indonesian weapons, japanese, indian, middle eastern...and now some turkish I guess. I signed up to tap into the collective knowledge about yatagan inscriptions, I recently bought one and cannot translate... I think it is a date - seems 4 digits- but I don't recognise the script, doesn't look like the arabic numerals. If anyone can tell me more about this I 'd be very happy. a reference to the script on the internet, maybe even the makers name from his stamp, region of fabrication, all info is wellcome. The second piece is larger and heavier and has turkish ribbon forging. Dated 1275 = 1858 or 1859 if my research is correct. Below that may be a makers name? On both sides the ears on the pommel are missing, I wonder how these were originally. Maybe smaller ears or also separate pieces to form a T-handle? Thanks in advance and best regards, Eric. Attached Images

14th May 2014, 04:06 PM	#6
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	About the stamp. Attached Images

15th May 2014, 10:17 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ali and Zulfiqar question I wonder why we have so many references to Ali and Zulfiqar on Ottoman weapons: swords and firearms... someone know?

10th May 2014, 01:41 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Both are likely to be Zeibek ones, from W. Anatolia, around Bursa. The first one has typical T-handle, the second one likely had them broken off, with only stumps remaining. The second blade is typical Zeibek: heavy, simply concave ( not recurved) and with a T-spine. The first one may also be Zeibek, but a little strange: no T-spine. Happens. And not, it is not a St. Irene stamp ( Kayi, old Oguz). Kayi looks like a trident.

10th May 2014, 04:04 PM	#4
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Commonly, most of those "zeybek" yatağans are older Anatolian yatağans (usually inherited from family elders) that were rehilted in this IMHO crude manner. I believe the first one is are such an example. Even that very poor attempt at decoration and the "yol"( the matal part that hides where blade mmets hilt) might be added later. I fail to see the Kayı stamp that is usually can be found in every weapon that became a part of Cebehane(Ottoman Royal Armory) one time or another. No offense but these two are hardly Royal Armory material. Fun fact: Kayı stamp is originally stylized version of a Turkish bow strung with an arrow, that is between two arrows; and originally used to mark the live stock that belong ed to the Kayı clan. Other Turkmen clans have their own stamps. In tişme it became a dynasty symbol, and used to mark almost everything that belonged to the House of Osman, especially arms and armour. It also a symbol that represents that they did not forget their nomadic Oğuz Turkish roots.

11th May 2014, 03:24 PM	#5
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Dear gents, thank you all for the information! I completely agree that these are not weapons for wealthy men, especially number 1 seems improvised at the hilt. Some canvas binding with hard resin of some sort. However as a weapon,it feels better than the other one. Number 1 is light and agile, the other feels clumsy more like an axe. Heavy but slow. Any ideas on the insrciption next to the stamp in number one? which script could this be? It is funny to see where these came from; next month i'm going to visit Istanbul which is just around the corner Best regards, Eric

15th May 2014, 08:06 PM	#7
Klop Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 63	Dear Zifir, thank you very much! Best regards, Eric.

16th May 2014, 04:30 PM	#9
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Hz.Ali (r.a) has a special place in all muslims heart, whether they are sunni or shia. And, in Turkish culture, Hz.Ali (r.a.) is viewed as the ideal example of a muslim warrior; that is why he is often referenced in arms and armour. But in this case, I don't think the "Ali" in he stamp is a reference to Hz.Ali(r.a.); but just the maker's mark with the name of the bladesmith. Ali is a very common name in Turkey.