S.Seas-V- Early African clubs

[Tim Simmons]

This has been playing on my mind for some time. The values put on the stated items. I am amazed at the price put on the usual and frequently seen South Seas clubs. I can understand the value of truely old peices and those from outlying islands. But so many are NOT this. What I find interesting is African clubs from areas not explored untill the later part of the 19th century are some what poopooed and yet as has been documented from the first contact in the late 18th century S.Seas artifacts were made for sale into the 20th century. So some South Seas clubs are more plentiful and could well have been made for sale a good time before many small tribes in some African parts ever set eyes on a white man. Why, what is the discrepancy here?

[spiral]

Rarity on its own doesnt equal a large finacial value Tim. I wish it did.

The individual demand for each item decides the market value. {& the wealth of those individuals competing of course.}

If more people want something that they have to compete to get for the value goes up.

The fact that many may not be aware of the genuine age or honesty of what they bye doesnt apparently affect that.

So its Simply Supply & Demand, I guess thats why so many excelent kukri can be found so cheaply. Not that many people collect them.

Of course there may be others factors I havent noticed as well. {cartels monopolys & old boy networks bieng one for some exotic items perhaps both amongst buyers & sellers}

Spiral

[Lew]

Tim

Most of the Fijian clubs are from the 1870s-90 and I believe Britain was the colonial power in the island at that time. I do not think that these old clubs were made for sailors or tourists. The ones that you see on ebay that are ebonized are 1950s-90s tourist pieces. Maybe the south pacific clubs are just more chic than there African counter parts to collect.


Lew

[VANDOO]

I THINK THE PRICE OF SOUTH PACIFIC CLUBS IS MOSTLY DUE TO THE GALLERIES TOUTING THEM AS HIGH CLASS ETHINOGRAPHIC ART. THEY HAVE BEEM PROFESSIONALLY PROMOTED FOR YEARS AS RARE AND A GOOD INVESTMENT AND THEY DO HAVE A LOT OF APPEAL.
THE REASON THE CLUBS MADE IN THE LAST 100 YEARS STILL SELL IS MOST COLLECTORS CAN'T AFFORD THE GOOD OLD ONES BUT STILL WANT AN EXAMPLE OF SOME OF THE RARE FORMS. SO IF THEY ARE WELL MADE OR FROM THE 1920'S, TO 1940'S UNTIL THE PRESENT ALL HAVE THEIR DEVOTEES.
THERE IS ALSO COMPETICIAN IN NATIVE AMERICAN, AFRICAN, ECT. AT PRESENT THERE IS A COLLECTION OF PENOPSCOT CLUBS FOR SALE FOR A ASTOUNDING AMOUNT ON EBAY. I HAVE BID ON HUNDREDS OF THE THINGS ON EBAY PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS TRYING TO CORNER THE MARKET AS I STILL DON'T HAVE AN EXAMPLE OLD OR NEWLY MADE. I NOW PLAN TO JUST CARVE MY OWN.

[Tim Simmons]

I must be very dumb. The market, talwars?, keris? so many? many? other types are so abundant yet command high prices. Millions around and millions want them. You would be forgiven thinking they should be cheap? Perhaps I live in a different world .

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

I think there might be a social angle to this. For instance, when I say, "Pacific Island" you think vacation paradise, or (if you're historically minded) "Noble Savage."

If I say, "tropical African country" you think civil war, disease, and (if you're historically minded) slavery and the "White Man's Grave."

So...where would you prefer to buy a club from?

Fair? Not really. The Solomon Islands (to take one place that produces a lot of clubs) has an ongoing civil war and a really virulent form of malaria. AIDS is world-wide, and blackbirding took place in the South Seas, although not on the scale of African slavery. Conversely, much of Africa is beautiful and parts have been pretty peaceful for years.

I don't think it's fair, but I do think that such attitudes affect the prices of artifacts.

F

[VANDOO]

I AGREE WITH FEARN'S POINTS.
IN THE PACIFIC WAR CLUBS SEEMED TO HAVE HAD MORE IMPORTANCE AND PRESTIEGE THAN IN AFRICA. THEY WERE GENERALY LARGER AND OFTEN VERY ELABORATELY DECORATED AND CARVED. THE DECORATIONS ON CLUBS, SPEARS, (SHIELDS WHERE THEY WERE USED) WERE IMPRESSIVE AND NO DOUBT SHOWED THE WARRIORS GREATNESS OR STATUS AND PERHAPS HIS TRIBE. THE DECORATIONS WERE VERY ORNATE AND OFTEN COVERED THE CLUB LIKE THE TATOOS OFTEN COVERED THE WARRIOR. UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NO KNOWLEGE OF THE STORIES THESE DESIGNS TOLD OR OF THEIR MEANINGS. I FEAR THE KNOWLEGE WAS LOST LONG AGO, THE EXPLORERS LIKE COOK AND OTHERS DID GATHER AS FANCY AN EXAMPLE AS THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON TO BRING BACK FOR MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND TO MAKE THEIR REPORTS AND PAPERS MORE INTERESTING. THEY ALSO BROUGHT BACK DRAWINGS SOME ACCURATE AND SOME FANCIFUL BUT THEY DID NOT TALK TO THE TRIBES WISE MEN OR CHIEFS AND FIND OUT MUCH OF THEIR TRADITIONS AND WHAT THE TATOOS OR DESIGNS ON CLUBS MEANT AS FAR AS I KNOW.

WRITERS GLORIFIED THE SOUTH PACIFIC AND THE NOBLE SAVAGE OR THEY TALKED OF THE PERILS AND THE DEADLY HEADHUNTERS AND CANNIBALS. THIS INCREASED THE INTEREST IN THE AREA AND ITS ARTEFACTS AND ADVENTURERS, ARTISTS AND WRITERS FLOCKED THERE. IT WAS NO DOUBT THE IN THING TO HAVE A NICE BIG CANNIBAL WAR CLUB AS A CONVERSATION PIECE AT HOME OR AT THE MENS CLUB.
TODAY IN MANY PARTS OR RUAL AFRICA EVERYONE CARRIES A CLUB OR STICK ALL THE TIME. THEY ARE USUALLY NOT DECORATED MUCH BUT ARE VERY FUNCTIONAL AS YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN SOMETHING YOU CAN EAT MIGHT GET IN THROWING RANGE OR YOU MIGHT NEED TO RUN OFF A DOG OR HYEANA OR SOMETHING OR PERHAPS KONK A NEGHBOR WHO STOLD YOUR CHICKEN. IN AFRICA THE CLUBS HAVE NICE FORMS AND VERY DECORATIVE WIREWORK BUT ARE USUALLY OF A SMALLER SIZE AND PLAIN. THE VERY FANCY CARVEING AND DECORATIONS SEEMS TO BE MOSTLY ON STAFFS, SEPTERS AND STUFF FOR CHIEFS OR CEREMONIES. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS INFORMATION ON WHY THIS IS