Information on Javanese knife

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2006, 08:04 PM

I won this on ebay a couple of nights ago now. The striaght bladed one is from A G. Van Zonnevelds Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago page 74. Mine is the curved one, it has yet to arrive so I am showing the ebay picture. Can anyone say a little more about then? I know nothing. I think they look very similar to some African, South Sudan knives. Does anyone else have one?

Lew · 5th May 2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I won this on ebay a couple of nights ago now. The striaght bladed one is from A G. Van Zonnevelds Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago page 74. Mine is the curved one, it has yet to arrive so I am showing the ebay picture. Can anyone say a little more about then? I know nothing. I think they look very similar to some African, South Sudan knives. Does anyone else have one?

Tim

I think A G. Van Zonnevelds blew it on this one. These daggers look Southern Sudan to me. The scabbards are made of sheet steel or some other metal like you find on so many Syrian and Lebonese daggers. Indonesian scabbards are usually made of wood or horn. Hey everyone is entitled to one mistake

Lew

ariel · 5th May 2006, 11:15 PM

I am with Lew on this one.
Lew, could it be Mexican?

Lew · 5th May 2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am with Lew on this one.
Lew, could it be Mexican?

Ariel

Could be!
Maybe the person who owned the knife was blown way off course and ended up in Mexico

or some African swallows flew it all the way over to Mexico

Oh my goodness migrating daggers

Lew

Tim Simmons · 6th May 2006, 11:27 AM

That is what I thought when I got the book on its publishing. I was not sure I had the confidence to raise the point. On finding this knife I felt emboldened

. Do you think the addition of these knives in the aforementioned book must have been a deliberate mistake?

Lew · 6th May 2006, 01:05 PM

Do you think the addition of these knives in the aforementioned book must have been a deliberate mistake?[/QUOTE]

Tim

I think it was an honest mistake and not deliberate. The author probably had tons of knives in his collection and some how this one just got mixed in.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2006, 10:02 PM

This arrived today, nice steel blade, was quite surprised. There is some zigzag decoration on the blade but the flash has wiped it out. The handle is horn, zinc and brass.

Ian · 19th May 2006, 11:39 PM

There is one form of migration that has not been considered so far in this thread, and that is the Haj. Religious pilgrims to Mecca have been known to trade with other pilgrims and to bring back home many items from distant lands. I think this is the most likely explanation for an African dagger ending up in Indonesia.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Tim

I think A G. Van Zonnevelds blew it on this one. These daggers look Southern Sudan to me. The scabbards are made of sheet steel or some other metal like you find on so many Syrian and Lebonese daggers. Indonesian scabbards are usually made of wood or horn. Hey everyone is entitled to one mistake

Lew

doecon · 20th May 2006, 12:51 AM

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

ariel · 20th May 2006, 01:03 AM

I initially agreed with Lew, but having seen good pics, I have my doubts.
This knife is of far higher quality and workmanship than anything Sudanese/Somali I have ever seen.

kai · 20th May 2006, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

Wouldn't that be a Wedung/Wedong?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th May 2006, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Wouldn't that be a Wedung/Wedong?

Regards,
Kai

Most likely Kai .
Hard to tell from a picture smaller than a postage stamp .

This piece is about as Javanese as I am .

kai · 20th May 2006, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hard to tell from a picture smaller than a postage stamp .

A while back, I've seen it in color & decent size - can't remember where though and too tired to Google...

Quote:

This piece is about as Javanese as I am .

Deal.

HartCone · 20th May 2006, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I won this on ebay a couple of nights ago now. The striaght bladed one is from A G. Van Zonnevelds Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago page 74. Mine is the curved one, it has yet to arrive so I am showing the ebay picture. Can anyone say a little more about then? I know nothing. I think they look very similar to some African, South Sudan knives. Does anyone else have one?

hi....
can i joint this thread????

the curved knives in your attachement it's call 'jambiah' or 'jambea'
it's arabian knife, nice knife....

wedung is more simple shape...
wedung warangka/scabbard is most made from trembalo wood, no metal cover...

Pangeran Datu · 20th May 2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

G'day all,
Just to clarify things:
The image attached is originally from the book:'The History of Java' by Sir T.S. Raffles (1817). As far as I can tell, there is nothing to indicate that he is a palace guard. However, he IS a member of the Javanese nobility. He is sporting a keris ladrang and a wedung.

Regards.

doecon · 20th May 2006, 02:03 PM

G'day too,

There is indeed only the subscript with the picture mentioning he is a palace guard. But of course nobility sounds fine. And for sure he is not carying a Wedung.

Just to clarify things;

Jambea's are around in Indonesia, old ones as well. But as mentioned I rarely see one, the one I mentioned came from Yogja.In some drawings and paintings I noticed them as well (unfortunatly I had only the "stamp" above to show).

Middle eastern traders have frequent the islands for century's so it isnt so strange to find some. The trip to mekka was also made by locals, for century's. So maybe they brought them as souvenirs. During the 1800's those that had made their mekka trip were seen as a seperate nobility class, they even dressed as arabs. It can well be that Jambea's were part of their new "fashion".

Since the one I mentioned is old and has a damascus (localmade) blade, I would even leave the posibility open that they were produced locally.

I hope to show you the item within a week or so.

Tim Simmons · 20th May 2006, 03:00 PM

What interesting replies. I think you are right about the middle east, Arabia. The engraving is common to metalwork all over the middle east including Turkey, where I have seen the same style of zigzag engraving on coffee grinders. The similarity of knife hands in the horn of Africa is not uncommon. I was surprised at the steel, not that all African steel is crude in any way, some is of the finest razor quality. Thanks for the information and I am very pleased to have another Arabian piece, something I am rather short on.

Flavio · 20th May 2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

The same picture is on Van Zonnevald's book. The way the knife is carried seems like the one of a wedung with a hook for the belt.

kai · 21st May 2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

The same picture is on Van Zonnevald's book.

Thanks, Flavio! I believed I had seen that pic several times online but didn't thought of AVZ...

Quote:

The way the knife is carried seems like the one of a wedung with a hook for the belt.

Also the hilt configuration doesn't show any similarity to the usual Jambea hilts. Especially the hilt being confluent with the metok (enlarged base of the blade) seems to me to suggest a Wedung. Any other blades with a metok(-like) hilt design being acceptable for the dress code of a Jawa court?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 21st May 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

And for sure he is not carying a Wedung.

Well, that's just an assertion. You may want to give some reasons why you think that the blade on the pic *surely* is a Jambea rather than a Wedung...

I've seen a few imported as well as some locally made varieties belonging to the diverse Jambiya blade family - none of these looked anything close to the piece shown on Raffles' pic though.

Regards,
Kai

doecon · 21st May 2006, 02:45 AM

On the first picture the sheath didnt look as a wedung type at all. Better pictures probably showed my wrong

Attatched picture of Wedung from around that time (1850's). Hilt is indeed the same, scabbard still looks a bit off.

Tim Simmons · 21st May 2006, 08:45 PM

Rather an extravagant shoe horn. Pretty pretty.

Mick · 21st May 2006, 09:34 PM

doecon

If you own that piece you have gotten a hold of one of the highest ranking wedungs that I have ever seen.

Naga Sasra · 21st May 2006, 11:06 PM

I fully concur with Mick, an extraordinary piece, and should you want you let it go

RobT · 22nd May 2006, 12:43 AM

Hi all,
This is my straight blade version of the knife that started this thread. The two long cylinders that comprise the bulk of the grip of the hilt appear to be rhino. The spacers, as well as the baselard style crossguard and pommel, appear to be cowhorn. The washers between the horn are steel. The washer that separated the two rhino horn cylinders is missing. The blade and sheath decoration are identical to those on the curved blade version. Frankly, I would be surprised to find that these pieces were not northern African. I collect both African and Indonesian knives and swords and I don't see anything Indonesian in my piece.
Sincerely,
RobT

doecon · 22nd May 2006, 01:16 AM

RobT: Nice piece, clearly the same features as the one Zonneveld mentioned in his book?

Wedung posted above is not mine, sorry if I created any wrong impression.
Its in the Volkenkundig Museum in Leiden.

5th May 2006, 08:04 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Information on Javanese knife I won this on ebay a couple of nights ago now. The striaght bladed one is from A G. Van Zonnevelds Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago page 74. Mine is the curved one, it has yet to arrive so I am showing the ebay picture. Can anyone say a little more about then? I know nothing. I think they look very similar to some African, South Sudan knives. Does anyone else have one? Attached Images

19th May 2006, 10:02 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This arrived today, nice steel blade, was quite surprised. There is some zigzag decoration on the blade but the flash has wiped it out. The handle is horn, zinc and brass. Attached Images

20th May 2006, 12:51 AM	#9
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing. (I dont have better pictures) Attached Images

20th May 2006, 03:00 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What interesting replies. I think you are right about the middle east, Arabia. The engraving is common to metalwork all over the middle east including Turkey, where I have seen the same style of zigzag engraving on coffee grinders. The similarity of knife hands in the horn of Africa is not uncommon. I was surprised at the steel, not that all African steel is crude in any way, some is of the finest razor quality. Thanks for the information and I am very pleased to have another Arabian piece, something I am rather short on. Attached Images

21st May 2006, 02:45 AM	#21
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	On the first picture the sheath didnt look as a wedung type at all. Better pictures probably showed my wrong Attatched picture of Wedung from around that time (1850's). Hilt is indeed the same, scabbard still looks a bit off. Attached Images

5th May 2006, 11:15 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am with Lew on this one. Lew, could it be Mexican?

6th May 2006, 11:27 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is what I thought when I got the book on its publishing. I was not sure I had the confidence to raise the point. On finding this knife I felt emboldened . Do you think the addition of these knives in the aforementioned book must have been a deliberate mistake?

6th May 2006, 01:05 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Do you think the addition of these knives in the aforementioned book must have been a deliberate mistake?[/QUOTE] Tim I think it was an honest mistake and not deliberate. The author probably had tons of knives in his collection and some how this one just got mixed in. Lew

20th May 2006, 01:03 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I initially agreed with Lew, but having seen good pics, I have my doubts. This knife is of far higher quality and workmanship than anything Sudanese/Somali I have ever seen.

20th May 2006, 02:03 PM	#16
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	G'day too, There is indeed only the subscript with the picture mentioning he is a palace guard. But of course nobility sounds fine. And for sure he is not carying a Wedung. Just to clarify things; Jambea's are around in Indonesia, old ones as well. But as mentioned I rarely see one, the one I mentioned came from Yogja.In some drawings and paintings I noticed them as well (unfortunatly I had only the "stamp" above to show). Middle eastern traders have frequent the islands for century's so it isnt so strange to find some. The trip to mekka was also made by locals, for century's. So maybe they brought them as souvenirs. During the 1800's those that had made their mekka trip were seen as a seperate nobility class, they even dressed as arabs. It can well be that Jambea's were part of their new "fashion". Since the one I mentioned is old and has a damascus (localmade) blade, I would even leave the posibility open that they were produced locally. I hope to show you the item within a week or so.

21st May 2006, 08:45 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rather an extravagant shoe horn. Pretty pretty.

21st May 2006, 09:34 PM	#23
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	doecon If you own that piece you have gotten a hold of one of the highest ranking wedungs that I have ever seen.

21st May 2006, 11:06 PM	#24
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	I fully concur with Mick, an extraordinary piece, and should you want you let it go

22nd May 2006, 12:43 AM	#25
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Rhino Hilt Parts? Hi all, This is my straight blade version of the knife that started this thread. The two long cylinders that comprise the bulk of the grip of the hilt appear to be rhino. The spacers, as well as the baselard style crossguard and pommel, appear to be cowhorn. The washers between the horn are steel. The washer that separated the two rhino horn cylinders is missing. The blade and sheath decoration are identical to those on the curved blade version. Frankly, I would be surprised to find that these pieces were not northern African. I collect both African and Indonesian knives and swords and I don't see anything Indonesian in my piece. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

22nd May 2006, 01:16 AM	#26
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	RobT: Nice piece, clearly the same features as the one Zonneveld mentioned in his book? Wedung posted above is not mine, sorry if I created any wrong impression. Its in the Volkenkundig Museum in Leiden.