Some more objects from the RDG - Keris, kaskara (?) and spears

RDGAC · 14th May 2010, 04:42 PM

Howdy all; while still patiently working on our jezail (many thanks to Ward and Jim for their excellent insights, along with anyone else I've missed - d'oh!), I've begun to wonder about some of the other ethnographic arms in our collection. Most were captured from then-enemy forces at various points during the 19th century and have been in the possession of the Regiment, and latterly the Museum, for many years, with virtually no documentation to their name. Since I've made it my policy to take periodic breaks from transferring the accession registers to our new system (boring but important) for the sake of my own sanity, I thought I might as well enquire with you folks and get any information you might have. And as a side benefit, some of you might even come and visit - who knows?

We begin with this, which I believe is a Malay keris (or kris - which is better?), presented by Field Marshal Sir Nigel Bagnall and accessioned in 1987. It is simply recorded as "Dagger Indonesian Ceremonial", with no elaboration. Without further ado, the pics!

Length overall (weapon in scabbard): 26in (66cm)
Length weapon overall: 21.75in (55cm)
Length blade: 16in (40.6cm)
Length grip: 5.25in (12.7cm)
Length scabbard overall: 20.25in (51.5cm)
Width at widest point: 3.75in (9.5cm)
Width 0.25in from tip: ~0.5in (1.27cm)
Grip material: Silver, with crimson gemstones (rubies?) at base of grip
Scabbard max width: ~7.25in

An overview of the flat of the weapon's right-hand side (I think):
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7180/img0352yk.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4650/img0353dz.jpg

Same side, grip/pommel:
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3721/img0355b.jpg

Same side blade:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2351/img0356jx.jpg

Close-ups of the joint between blade and grip:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4954/img0357um.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6297/img0358n.jpg

Blade, left-hand side:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4245/img0359p.jpg

(At this point, I should like to stress that none of the staff here at present are responsible for painting that number on the blade. I'd dearly love to remove it.)

Blade, right-hand side, flash highlighting the carving near the base of the blade:
http://img210.imageshack.us/i/img0360gi.jpg/

Scabbard, right-hand side:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9315/img0361qp.jpg

Close-ups, decoration, base and tip:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9777/img0362wt.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8923/img0363v.jpg

Overall, with 45cm (18in) ruler for size comparison:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1144/img0364m.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9576/img0365m.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3047/img0366kv.jpg

Top down, attempting to give a view within scabbard:
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/787/img0367v.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9114/img0368c.jpg

Overall of both weapon and scabbard, with ruler:
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1919/img0369fn.jpg

Overall, weapon in scabbard, with ruler:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/255/img0370gl.jpg

Close-up, showing degree of blade protrusion from base of scabbard:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9101/img0371wf.jpg

VANDOO · 14th May 2010, 05:35 PM

A VERY INTERESTING KERIS, THE HILT APPEARS TO BE FROM BALI, PERHAPS SILVER OR TIN OR SOME OTHER WHITE METAL

. I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT ON THE KEIS AND IT IS DEFINITELY A COMPLICATED WEAPON TO STUDY SO WILL LEAVE FURTHER COMMENT TO THE KERIS SCHOLARS.

THIS POST PROBABLY NEEDS TO BE MOVED TO THE KERIS PART OF THE FORUM WHERE THEY WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WILL SEE IT AND MAKE THE MOVE. BEST OF LUCK

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2010, 05:45 PM

A beautiful weapon indeed!! but the keris is far outside my fields of study. The complexity and dimension of these fascinating weapons needs full and specialized attention in most cases, and once captivated by these, as the keris guys will concede, theres no turning back !!

Sure would like to see the kaskara and spears though!!

All best regards,
Jim

RDGAC · 14th May 2010, 05:49 PM

Ye-es, I remembered that forum just after posting this message. I'm not sure what to do about that - perhaps part this topic and edit its title, then make a new one for the other bits in here. Anyway, I'm sure all will be well.

Incidentally, a small plaque affixed to the case in which this weapon resides (which I cleverly didn't look at earlier) states that this particular keris was presented by General Try Sutrisno, then Chief of Staff, Indonesian National Army. That'd date its presentation to between 1985 and 1993, I believe, with the A/N suggesting 1985-86.

Jim, one kaskara coming right up!

Sajen · 14th May 2010, 06:22 PM

This is a very nice balinese keris with silver (?) hilt and sheat, do you have tested it? The hilt is in wrong direction, turn it by 180 degree.

Rick · 14th May 2010, 10:01 PM

Can we break this into two separate posts fellows ?

Perhaps start a new thread in Ethno beginning with the Kaskara .
There is quite a volume of posts on Kaskara to be found in an archive search .

Leave the keris in here under our tender care .

ganjawulung · 14th May 2010, 10:45 PM

Yes,

Agree with Detlef, a Balinese Keris (Item #1). It could be a Lombok keris too. Not a javanese keris.

The warangka (sheath) type is "gayaman" (Bali) or in Lombok called as Tolang Paoq (mango seed).The name of wood motif (pelet) is Pelet Moto, or Pelet Sengareq or Pelet Bintang in Lombok depicted as scattered rice or scattered stars in the sky, and with (could be) silver scabbard.

The type of keris, is Balinese seven luks (waves), with hilt type of (silver?) Togogan -- usually depicted gods or raksasa/giant creature..

GANJAWULUNG

David · 14th May 2010, 10:48 PM

I split the thread off to the main forum Rick. Keris is here, kaskara is there.

Rick · 15th May 2010, 02:35 AM

Kewl ....

RDGAC · 17th May 2010, 05:12 PM

Ah. Thanks chaps, will turn the hilt as suggested - carefully! Is there any particular method, or any nasty surprises of which a novice ought to be warned before attempting this?

Sajen · 17th May 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Ah. Thanks chaps, will turn the hilt as suggested - carefully! Is there any particular method, or any nasty surprises of which a novice ought to be warned before attempting this?

The only surprise will be that the hilt is not free to move.

DAHenkel · 23rd May 2010, 04:25 AM

It should also be pointed out that this is almost certainly a reworked piece. The silverwork is probably contemporaneous to the time of its presentation and to my eye does fit the late 80's early 90's. The blade and sheath look older though.

RDGAC · 9th June 2010, 03:31 PM

Most interesting, one and all; I've just dug this example out for inspection again and am unsure as to whether the hilt is silver or not. It seems, to me, a little light for such, but that might just be a very careful bit of balancing on the part of the smith who made it. As to the scabbard, it is very light indeed and the "silver" is cracked on one side; since I don't think one can plate wood it must, I think, be some kind of veneer-like material.

Rick · 9th June 2010, 04:30 PM

This is often sheet silver applied over a solid core .

RDGAC · 9th June 2010, 05:55 PM

Indeed it would appear so, Rick; looking at it, a pair of seams are quite clearly visible. The sheet cannot be more than one or perhaps two millimetres in thickness, yet is extraordinarily finely worked. Quite marvellous!

Meredydd Jones

Battara · 9th June 2010, 07:13 PM

Often thin sheet silver is needed to do repousse work. Pictures would b helpful.

Rick · 9th June 2010, 07:14 PM

Yes, these kerisses ....
Quite addictive for some collectors ....

kulbuntet · 24th June 2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Yes,

Agree with Detlef, a Balinese Keris (Item #1). It could be a Lombok keris too. Not a javanese keris.

The warangka (sheath) type is "gayaman" (Bali) or in Lombok called as Tolang Paoq (mango seed).The name of wood motif (pelet) is Pelet Moto, or Pelet Sengareq or Pelet Bintang in Lombok depicted as scattered rice or scattered stars in the sky, and with (could be) silver scabbard.

The type of keris, is Balinese seven luks (waves), with hilt type of (silver?) Togogan -- usually depicted gods or raksasa/giant creature..

GANJAWULUNG

Mr. Ganja,
About the hulu, as far as i can see (forgive me if im wrong) the figure on the hilt has a fan in his hand. So it must be in this case be Bayu (Hindu wind god/demon).

14th May 2010, 05:49 PM	#4
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Ye-es, I remembered that forum just after posting this message. I'm not sure what to do about that - perhaps part this topic and edit its title, then make a new one for the other bits in here. Anyway, I'm sure all will be well. Incidentally, a small plaque affixed to the case in which this weapon resides (which I cleverly didn't look at earlier) states that this particular keris was presented by General Try Sutrisno, then Chief of Staff, Indonesian National Army. That'd date its presentation to between 1985 and 1993, I believe, with the A/N suggesting 1985-86. Jim, one kaskara coming right up! Last edited by RDGAC; 14th May 2010 at 06:10 PM.

14th May 2010, 10:45 PM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Balinese Keris ( Item #1 ) Yes, Agree with Detlef, a Balinese Keris (Item #1). It could be a Lombok keris too. Not a javanese keris. The warangka (sheath) type is "gayaman" (Bali) or in Lombok called as Tolang Paoq (mango seed).The name of wood motif (pelet) is Pelet Moto, or Pelet Sengareq or Pelet Bintang in Lombok depicted as scattered rice or scattered stars in the sky, and with (could be) silver scabbard. The type of keris, is Balinese seven luks (waves), with hilt type of (silver?) Togogan -- usually depicted gods or raksasa/giant creature.. GANJAWULUNG

14th May 2010, 04:42 PM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Some more objects from the RDG - Keris, kaskara (?) and spears Howdy all; while still patiently working on our jezail (many thanks to Ward and Jim for their excellent insights, along with anyone else I've missed - d'oh!), I've begun to wonder about some of the other ethnographic arms in our collection. Most were captured from then-enemy forces at various points during the 19th century and have been in the possession of the Regiment, and latterly the Museum, for many years, with virtually no documentation to their name. Since I've made it my policy to take periodic breaks from transferring the accession registers to our new system (boring but important) for the sake of my own sanity, I thought I might as well enquire with you folks and get any information you might have. And as a side benefit, some of you might even come and visit - who knows? We begin with this, which I believe is a Malay keris (or kris - which is better?), presented by Field Marshal Sir Nigel Bagnall and accessioned in 1987. It is simply recorded as "Dagger Indonesian Ceremonial", with no elaboration. Without further ado, the pics! Length overall (weapon in scabbard): 26in (66cm) Length weapon overall: 21.75in (55cm) Length blade: 16in (40.6cm) Length grip: 5.25in (12.7cm) Length scabbard overall: 20.25in (51.5cm) Width at widest point: 3.75in (9.5cm) Width 0.25in from tip: ~0.5in (1.27cm) Grip material: Silver, with crimson gemstones (rubies?) at base of grip Scabbard max width: ~7.25in An overview of the flat of the weapon's right-hand side (I think): http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7180/img0352yk.jpg http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4650/img0353dz.jpg Same side, grip/pommel: http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3721/img0355b.jpg Same side blade: http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2351/img0356jx.jpg Close-ups of the joint between blade and grip: http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4954/img0357um.jpg http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6297/img0358n.jpg Blade, left-hand side: http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4245/img0359p.jpg (At this point, I should like to stress that none of the staff here at present are responsible for painting that number on the blade. I'd dearly love to remove it.) Blade, right-hand side, flash highlighting the carving near the base of the blade: http://img210.imageshack.us/i/img0360gi.jpg/ Scabbard, right-hand side: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9315/img0361qp.jpg Close-ups, decoration, base and tip: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9777/img0362wt.jpg http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8923/img0363v.jpg Overall, with 45cm (18in) ruler for size comparison: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1144/img0364m.jpg http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9576/img0365m.jpg http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3047/img0366kv.jpg Top down, attempting to give a view within scabbard: http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/787/img0367v.jpg http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9114/img0368c.jpg Overall of both weapon and scabbard, with ruler: http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1919/img0369fn.jpg Overall, weapon in scabbard, with ruler: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/255/img0370gl.jpg Close-up, showing degree of blade protrusion from base of scabbard: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9101/img0371wf.jpg

14th May 2010, 05:35 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING KERIS, THE HILT APPEARS TO BE FROM BALI, PERHAPS SILVER OR TIN OR SOME OTHER WHITE METAL . I AM FAR FROM AN EXPERT ON THE KEIS AND IT IS DEFINITELY A COMPLICATED WEAPON TO STUDY SO WILL LEAVE FURTHER COMMENT TO THE KERIS SCHOLARS. THIS POST PROBABLY NEEDS TO BE MOVED TO THE KERIS PART OF THE FORUM WHERE THEY WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WILL SEE IT AND MAKE THE MOVE. BEST OF LUCK

14th May 2010, 05:45 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	A beautiful weapon indeed!! but the keris is far outside my fields of study. The complexity and dimension of these fascinating weapons needs full and specialized attention in most cases, and once captivated by these, as the keris guys will concede, theres no turning back !! Sure would like to see the kaskara and spears though!! All best regards, Jim

14th May 2010, 06:22 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	This is a very nice balinese keris with silver (?) hilt and sheat, do you have tested it? The hilt is in wrong direction, turn it by 180 degree.

14th May 2010, 10:01 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Can we break this into two separate posts fellows ? Perhaps start a new thread in Ethno beginning with the Kaskara . There is quite a volume of posts on Kaskara to be found in an archive search . Leave the keris in here under our tender care .

14th May 2010, 10:48 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I split the thread off to the main forum Rick. Keris is here, kaskara is there.

15th May 2010, 02:35 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Kewl ....

17th May 2010, 05:12 PM	#10
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Ah. Thanks chaps, will turn the hilt as suggested - carefully! Is there any particular method, or any nasty surprises of which a novice ought to be warned before attempting this?

23rd May 2010, 04:25 AM	#12
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	It should also be pointed out that this is almost certainly a reworked piece. The silverwork is probably contemporaneous to the time of its presentation and to my eye does fit the late 80's early 90's. The blade and sheath look older though.

9th June 2010, 03:31 PM	#13
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Most interesting, one and all; I've just dug this example out for inspection again and am unsure as to whether the hilt is silver or not. It seems, to me, a little light for such, but that might just be a very careful bit of balancing on the part of the smith who made it. As to the scabbard, it is very light indeed and the "silver" is cracked on one side; since I don't think one can plate wood it must, I think, be some kind of veneer-like material.

9th June 2010, 04:30 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	This is often sheet silver applied over a solid core .

9th June 2010, 05:55 PM	#15
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Indeed it would appear so, Rick; looking at it, a pair of seams are quite clearly visible. The sheet cannot be more than one or perhaps two millimetres in thickness, yet is extraordinarily finely worked. Quite marvellous! Meredydd Jones

9th June 2010, 07:13 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Often thin sheet silver is needed to do repousse work. Pictures would b helpful.

9th June 2010, 07:14 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yes, these kerisses .... Quite addictive for some collectors ....