Three new talibon enter my collection

[Sajen]

I have purchased recently three talibon, I think two are older examples from the first quarter last century, interestingly one is for a lefthand fighter. The third one with missing ferrule have a horn monster handle, here I am unsure about the age, any thoughts? But I am sure that all three are not falling in the category of this WWII area talibons which was sold to US soldiers.
All comments are very welcome!

Here the pictures from the first one, 20,5" complete with a blade from 15".

[Sajen]

Here the pictures from the second one, 23" inside scabbard with a blade from 15,5".

[Sajen]

Here the pictures from the third one with horn handle, 20" overall with a blade from 16".

[CharlesS]

All VERY nice examples and so nice to find them so complete! Congrats!

[Sajen]

Thank you Charles!

[Battara]

I think I'll now call nickname you "Tito Garab" (Steve Ferguson is Tito Gunong).

As far as age is concerned, I'm thinking that they are perhaps 1920s-1930s?

[Robert]

Great score Detlef. Now I know who it was AGAIN winning everything that I was watching. I agree with Jose on the dating of these, first quarter of the 20th century or there about. I especially like the last one you picked with the carved horn hilt. I was wondering if the missing banding on the end towards the blade would have been braided rattan or a metal collar? Either would probably be an appropriate replacement. Please post more detailed photos of it after it has arrived and you have had a chance to clean it up a bit. Again, congratulations on the newest additions to your ever growing collection.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

I think I'll now call nickname you "Tito Garab" (Steve Ferguson is Tito Gunong).

As far as age is concerned, I'm thinking that they are perhaps 1920s-1930s?

I think for "Tito Garab" I still need some more! I have one real garab (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=talibon) and now this three talibon.

And thank you for confirming my age guess!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Robert

Great score Detlef. Now I know who it was AGAIN winning everything that I was watching. I agree with Jose on the dating of these, first quarter of the 20th century or there about. I especially like the last one you picked with the carved horn hilt. I was wondering if the missing banding on the end towards the blade would have been braided rattan or a metal collar? Either would probably be an appropriate replacement. Please post more detailed photos of it after it has arrived and you have had a chance to clean it up a bit. Again, congratulations on the newest additions to your ever growing collection.

Best,
Robert

Thank you as well Robert! And yes, it is the question, was there a collar (and from which material) or braided rattan at the hilt?

Will post some pictures after I have received them!

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Kumusta Tito:

Nice scores Detlef. The first two look like typical early 20th C talibon/garab but the horn-hilted one seems unusual in several ways.

First, the horn hilt is very uncommon (I don't recall another example--I've seen only wooden hilts). Second, the carved "figure" at the end of the hilt is of a form that I've not seen on another talibon or other Visayan weapons--it looks perhaps Indonesian to me, while the "curly hair" reminds me of the creature on the hilt of a Singhalese kastane. Third, I'm having trouble seeing a beveled edge on this one--it could be V-ground, which I have not seen on talibon/garab before. Fourth, the S-shape to the blade is not as pronounced as most talibon--the belly is a little more forward than most (compared with your other two, for example), while the narrowing at forte is a little less pronounced than most talibon. Lastly, the blade looks thin at the forte in one of the pictures and this would be very unusual for a talibon which is typically quite "chunky" in that area.

In favor of this being a talibon is the typical wooden sheath that is characteristically eastern Visayan in construction and style.

So, I think the horn-hilted one is not your typical talibon, perhaps a knife from elsewhere in Visayan dress. Examination in hand will make it apparent to you whether this is a typical talibon, and better pictures would decide the issue for us.

Congrats again on three good scores.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Kumusta Tito:

Nice scores Detlef. The first two look like typical early 20th C talibon/garab but the horn-hilted one seems unusual in several ways.

First, the horn hilt is very uncommon (I don't recall another example--I've seen only wooden hilts). Second, the carved "figure" at the end of the hilt is of a form that I've not seen on another talibon or other Visayan weapons--it looks perhaps Indonesian to me, while the "curly hair" reminds me of the creature on the hilt of a Singhalese kastane. Third, I'm having trouble seeing a beveled edge on this one--it could be V-ground, which I have not seen on talibon/garab before. Fourth, the S-shape to the blade is not as pronounced as most talibon--the belly is a little more forward than most (compared with your other two, for example), while the narrowing at forte is a little less pronounced than most talibon. Lastly, the blade looks thin at the forte in one of the pictures and this would be very unusual for a talibon which is typically quite "chunky" in that area.

In favor of this being a talibon is the typical wooden sheath that is characteristically eastern Visayan in construction and style.

So, I think the horn-hilted one is not your typical talibon, perhaps a knife from elsewhere in Visayan dress. Examination in hand will make it apparent to you whether this is a typical talibon, and better pictures would decide the issue for us.

Congrats again on three good scores.

Ian.

Kumusta Ian,

you are correct, I am with you, never before (when I remember correct) I have seen a talibon with a monster hilt but think that I have seen a few with horn hilts. The blade is beveled, I've asked the seller and he confirmed that one side is flat and the other beveled. But frankly said I haven't asked him how thick the blade is at the forte, we will see when it is arrived at the destination.
Thank you for your good observations and thoughts!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

In this thread pictured two talibon/garab with horn handle: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=garab
see post #20 & #28
And here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001242.html Barry have shown a talibon with horn monster handle, very different style but a monster head.

[Battara]

In the last link, I think the one with the horn hilt ands monster head is actually from Bicol. They use monster heads too.....

Which then brings up an interesting question: could your horn hilt be from Bicol? The head is not the typical type often found on Bicolano pieces, but you never know......

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

In the last link, I think the one with the horn hilt ands monster head is actually from Bicol. They use monster heads too.....

Which then brings up an interesting question: could your horn hilt be from Bicol? The head is not the typical type often found on Bicolano pieces, but you never know......

You could be correct that the one from Barry is from Bicol, maybe Barry can chime in and can tell us more. Do you ever have seen a talibon from Bicol? Or you think only the handle is maybe Bicolano? Frankly said the sword look in all parts original to my eyes so far to seen by the seller pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I am only suggesting the possibility that the hilt and perhaps the blade may be Bicolano. The scabbard is certainly tailbone/garab.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

I am only suggesting the possibility that the hilt and perhaps the blade may be Bicolano. The scabbard is certainly tailbone/garab.

When the blade is beveled like the seller stated I doubt that that the blade is Bicolano. We will see when the sword arrived at the destination if the fit inside the scabbard is original.

Best,
Detlef

[Robert]

I agree that the hilt is more than likely original to the blade. What I am waiting to hear is whether the blade fits the scabbard correctly. It might not prove that it is the original scabbard, but will at least show that it was more than likely made for this piece. One thing brought up was that this having a horn hilt was unusual, I have never noticed horn hilts to be unusual on talibong though more with wooden hilts seem to be available, but that looks to be the norm on most Philippine pieces. The carving on the hilt does seem to have more of an Indonesian look to it as Ian has already pointed out. The face reminds me of some of the tenegre hilts that I have seen only narrower and that could possibly be due to nothing more than the person who did the carving adding it after the hilt had originally been carved in a more traditional style. We will know more about it after it has arrived and Detlef has had a chance to clean, inspect and post clear and detailed photos that will help in its identification.

Best,
Robert

P.S. It is still my favorite of the group.

[Sajen]

Agree in all points Robert!

[Battara]

Good points folks. Besides, when it comes in, we find the hilt is from Antartica!

[Robert]

Jose, I intentionally left that part out and now you've gone and spoiled the surprise.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Good points folks. Besides, when it comes in, we find the hilt is from Antartica!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

First, the horn hilt is very uncommon (I don't recall another example--I've seen only wooden hilts). Second, the carved "figure" at the end of the hilt is of a form that I've not seen on another talibon or other Visayan weapons--it looks perhaps Indonesian to me, while the "curly hair" reminds me of the creature on the hilt of a Singhalese kastane. Third, I'm having trouble seeing a beveled edge on this one--it could be V-ground, which I have not seen on talibon/garab before. Fourth, the S-shape to the blade is not as pronounced as most talibon--the belly is a little more forward than most (compared with your other two, for example), while the narrowing at forte is a little less pronounced than most talibon. Lastly, the blade looks thin at the forte in one of the pictures and this would be very unusual for a talibon which is typically quite "chunky" in that area.

In favor of this being a talibon is the typical wooden sheath that is characteristically eastern Visayan in construction and style.

So, I think the horn-hilted one is not your typical talibon, perhaps a knife from elsewhere in Visayan dress. Examination in hand will make it apparent to you whether this is a typical talibon, and better pictures would decide the issue for us.

Very good observations Ian. Have received all three pieces and you are correct. The blade isn't beveled in the typical Visayan style and the scabbard don't belong to the sword. The blade is beveled on one side but not with a clear ridge like usual by Visayan blades. Either it was forged this way or someone has sanded it away since there are a lot of brush marks on the entire blade visible, very difficult to say.
Jose have given the sword a ferrule from silver and a guard from horn. Very nice restauration IMHO.
So now I ask myself and all others from where could this sword coming. All comments are very welcome.

[Sajen]

Our member Roland have given back the blade the original grinding shape which was only to feel after someone has cleaned the blade to harsh, now is the typical Visayan beveled edge clearly visible again.
Any guess what we have here? A talibon? Or an other Visayan blade? I am very sure that it is the original handle.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Our member Roland have given back the blade the original grinding shape which was only to feel after someone has cleaned the blade to harsh, now is the typical Visayan beveled edge clearly visible again.
Any guess what we have here? A talibon? Or an other Visayan blade? I am very sure that it is the original handle.

I'm thinking of four possibilities.

In Eastern Samar, the general classification of this blade would be 'sundang.' In several historical references, the Waray of this area classify sundang as a combat blade, and 'bolo' as a utility blade. There may be a more specific name for this blade type depending on its origin-town; unfortunately even in modern times this puzzle has not been solved yet. It's difficult to hunt for blades in this part of the Visayas since this is a communist rebel-infested area. 'Talibon' or 'talibong' is not a blade name known to the people of this area. Monster head-hilts are also prevalent in this area from a certain era (am guessing that era is pre-ww2).

On the other hand, this blade can also be a talibong from the Panay region (talibong = general term for combat blade). The blade profile fits the 'linamay' shape, and the hilt is in line with monster figurals from this area. However, two things stand out- the hilt angle is not common for a linamay profile, and the scabbard is not used by Panay blades.

To make things more interesting- Cebu also has the same scabbard and blade profile, with corresponding hilt angle. They also call this 'sundang.' The problem is, I'm not sure if there are monster-hilts from that region; from what I've seen, human head figurals were used in antique and vintage samples.

Finally, the radical conjecture would be that someone married a Panay-sourced hilt to an Eastern Samar blade, or a Panay-sourced hilt to a Cebu blade, or an Eastern Samar hilt to a Cebu blade.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

I'm thinking of four possibilities.

In Eastern Samar, the general classification of this blade would be 'sundang.' In several historical references, the Waray of this area classify sundang as a combat blade, and 'bolo' as a utility blade. There may be a more specific name for this blade type depending on its origin-town; unfortunately even in modern times this puzzle has not been solved yet. It's difficult to hunt for blades in this part of the Visayas since this is a communist rebel-infested area. 'Talibon' or 'talibong' is not a blade name known to the people of this area. Monster head-hilts are also prevalent in this area from a certain era (am guessing that era is pre-ww2).

On the other hand, this blade can also be a talibong from the Panay region (talibong = general term for combat blade). The blade profile fits the 'linamay' shape, and the hilt is in line with monster figurals from this area. However, two things stand out- the hilt angle is not common for a linamay profile, and the scabbard is not used by Panay blades.

To make things more interesting- Cebu also has the same scabbard and blade profile, with corresponding hilt angle. They also call this 'sundang.' The problem is, I'm not sure if there are monster-hilts from that region; from what I've seen, human head figurals were used in antique and vintage samples.

Finally, the radical conjecture would be that someone married a Panay-sourced hilt to an Eastern Samar blade, or a Panay-sourced hilt to a Cebu blade, or an Eastern Samar hilt to a Cebu blade.

Hi Xas,

Thank you very much for comment, I've hoped that you join in. Forget the scabbard, it's for sure not made for this blade like mentioned in post #22 before. so when I act on the assumption that the range of your four possibilities start with the most probable one that it could be a Waray sundang!?

Regards,
Detlef

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Xas,

Thank you very much for comment, I've hoped that you join in. Forget the scabbard, it's for sure not made for this blade like mentioned in post #22 before. so when I act on the assumption that the range of your four possibilities start with the most probable one that it could be a Waray sundang!?

Regards,
Detlef

I'm always biased towards the Warays =)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

I'm always biased towards the Warays =)

Thank you Xas!

Regards,
Detlef