My first Dha ....a few questions please

[katana]

Hi
very pleased to have added a Dha to my collection .

The blade is approx 7mm thick distally tapering to approx 1.5 mm. Blade is 20" long. Has a fuller with scroll work at either end (no pics ...I haven't received it yet). I noticed later, whilst 'messing around' (contrast, brightness etc) with the pictures of the blade that there seems to be 3 brass/copper coloured inserts near to the 'tip'....please what is the significance of this

The wooden handle is bound with plaited grass/rattan .... no scabbard, but seems to be a good honest, functional Dha.

The seller stated that this was a 'bring back' and had been in the family for some 60 years and was told it was a 'head hunting' sword.

Could anyone help ID country of origin, possible age etc. ? Thank you kindly

Regards David

ps The sword blade may look a little 'odd' as it was photographed on a bath towel.

[Battara]

I would guess at talismanic - seen similar decor on other Buddhist influenced pieces. Mark Bowditch or others from the "Dafia" would be of great help....

[Mark]

I think I'll have to wait for better photos before I can give any solid information. I have seen tip inserts like this on a few dha, but I have no idea what they might represent. They can be single, double, or as in this case triple (I have three, do I hear four? ). A talismanic function is possible, but I have no solid evidence that copper or brass, of which these inserts as well as the ones found along the spine of some dha are made, have any particular talismanic function. I am reluctant to say it is talismanic, because its a bit like the way archeoplogists call anything they can't figure out the purpose of a "ritual object."

Burmese? Thai? My guess is Shan (northern Tai).

[katana]

Thank you both, Battara and Mark, for your comments.

Talismatic reasons did 'spring to mind' but, as Mark has commented, this term is often used as an 'answer all'. Hopefully the Dha will arrive very soon and I can post better information and pics.

Would the blade be etched when owned in its native country ?
What wood would the scabbard be made from ?


Regards David

[Andrew]

Nice first dha, katana. I think the brass inserts are just for looks. (Let's apply Occam's Razor until better information becomes available ).

No etch traditionally. I do lightly etch/polish my finer dha, however, because I like the look. Your scabbard would likely have been teak bound with rattan strips.

[Mark]

Here's one with two dots.

[katana]

Thank you Andrew and Mark for your replies.


It has arrived and has not disappointed

Blade is well made and has some age and seems to be laminated but not certain. Minor problem in that the blade is slightly loose and with some pressure could be pulled out of the hilt. Feels nice in the hand, balance toward the tip.
Very fine rattan strips are plaited and then wound around the rattan handle which has a brass 'ferrule'. Using a magnet ...the tang finishes at the same point as the rattan binding.

The blade is 'wedge shaped' in cross section, the spine rather than being flat has been nicely filed into a 'V' (in cross section) with two brass inserts and incised cross hatching. Looks to be a chiselled shallow groove either side of the blade (fuller ?) Some 'scroll like' decoration either end of the 'line' pattern and the three brass inserts at the tip.

Comments and help with possible age and/or clarification that this is Shan would be great, thank you.

Regards David

[kronckew]

hi katana,

nice blade, mine is without the inset dots, and does not have fullers and has a flat spine, but the spine grooves and inlays are very similar. mine has (from hilt) 2grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1.5in gap, 2 grooves, 1.5 in gap, 3 grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1 in. gap, 4 grooves.



looks like half your grips rattan rings are missing, they will be fun to replace. if you are not into rattan work, braided string wrapped around & oil varnished could look very similar without being permanent. blade could be re-set into the hilt with cutlers cement (or resin) (Linky ) or pitch, y'all could use nepali laha which is pine rosin, some nice powdered dry dung (for the fibre content) and can be easily heated for removal/re-installation - smells wonderful when heated . depends on how far you want to go. you could of course give it a light clean & oiling/waxing & leave it alone.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Katana,
I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine.

Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank.

The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration.

I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North.

The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled.

Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used.
None
Brass
Silver
Gold
Gold with enameling

If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family.

I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now

Dan

[katana]

Thank you for the great info Kronckew, its appreciated What do you know of rattan braiding....have you done any? Any tips.

Hi Dan, thank you for the additional, interesting information. I am inclined to agree that the blade has been re-hilted, there seems to be a mismatch with the patina of the blade and that of the handle (the seller assures me that this has been in the family for 60 years so will assume the hilt is at least that old.) Could this blade be late 19thC - early 20 th C ?

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

............. and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side
Dan

Yo(Dha) says 'nice sword for collection you have, but ... for ultimate ....light sabre get you must'

[kronckew]

never done them in rattan myself, have done them in rope and cordage, the basic knotwork is the simple turks head shown on the linked page. thin rattan strips are soaked in hot water to make them pliable, then the knot is tied & tightened into place. have no idea where you'd get rattan, but as they use it to re-weave chair seats, there must be a craft supplier somewhere on the internet

[katana]

Great stuff Kronckew , on the hilt the strands are about 1mm wide (1/25th of an inch) it has the look and feel of rattan but I am not certain. To cut rattan into strips 1mm wide seems a skilled process, unless a tool/jig is used.
Failing that, I am wondering whether I could finish the handle in Ray skin...but I am not certain if that would be 'acceptable' ...as I would like to keep the repairs as close to its ethnic origins as possible.

Regards

[kronckew]

hi katana,

found that 1.5mm 'carriage' cane strips used in reweaving cane chair seats is split from rattan. can find that on the internet in 25ft. thru 1000 ft. spools, the latter may be a bit more than you need

i gather in thailand/burma, in the areas they make dhas/darbs that the little old ladies of the family sit around making the rings in a range fairly std sizes so they can be slipped over the grips & adjusted into place without too much fuss.

i imagine the supply of similar little old ladies in your area may be a bit limited tho, which is why i suggested using some lengths of flat braided twine (non-fuzzy type) of roughly the same color.

here's one i prepared earlier (it's on a long (1.25in. dia) shafted Cold Steel Assegai) i used a fairly coarse organic string to improve the grip as i was not trying to match anything, the ends of the spirally wound area were pulled back under the last few turns & cut off, the whole was 'varnished' by soaking in extra virgin olive oil which dried nicely after a few weeks. the spear shaft was also so treated.

[PUFF]

Traditionally, native people in this area made rattan strip with knife like this...


But, if you try local furniture makers, you may find one at reasonable size... like this
http://www.marshallmcgurk.com/SitUpon/diysales.htm

You can follow Turk Head technique. These pictures may also help.
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...A1%CA%D2%C1%2A
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A

In one of those link. You may notice a metal can with holes. That 's a special tool for making very very thin strips. Dont forget to soak the strips and trim their nodes before passing through the hole(s).

[katana]

Hi Kronckew, I (again) appreciate your advice and help.

Hi Puff,
thank you for the additional information and links. It is always good to see the tools and techniques used by locals (which are used by the makers of the weapons we all cherish)

Kind Regards David

[Ferguson]

Information on braiding rattan rings. Hope it's helpful.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4844

Steve

[katana]

Thank you Steve,
excellent post and well executed ( well it is a weapons forum )

I think it would be a very good idea if your 'how to' thread was added to a new 'sticky' catergory that others could add to. eg how to ...make a scabbard, re-hilt a Tulwar, replacing/ repairing damaged brass work etc. The need for minor repairs and restorations seem more common these days.....or maybe because interest in Ethnic weapons is increasing, people are more inclined to improve the condition of their pieces. Either way it would be a good resource for 'repair information'

Anyone any thoughts ?

David

[PUFF]

More info,

- Traditional hilt material 's bamboo or giant rattan. Their elasticity will absorb most of hand shock. Most of modern tourish type have hardwood handle because it "looks" stronger and nicer finish.

- Although some blades were mount with no glued (rely on friction). Most of them (at this age) were glued with hot-set resin. You may not want to DIY hot-set method for many reasons (hard to find material, complicate method, risk of removing blade temper etc...). IMO: epoxy glue will do the job.

- Scabbard could be made of teak wood. It has fine grain and not very hard to be carved. Teak wood will take some degree of finish. And it also has anti-insect property.

[katana]

Thanks Puff

After Dan's comments about the length of the tang possibly being longer than usual I decided to fully remove the blade. The Tang is 4.5" (11.5cms) long , the blade is 19.5" (49.5 cms) this gives a ratio of 1:4.3. (previously I used a magnet to check length of tang whilst still in the handle and it was only 3mm out....so a magnet 'test' seems quite accurate for those that want to measure their own tangs)
Assuming that longer blades would require a longer tang a 30" blade would have a tang of 7" (well 6.976" if you wanted to be accurate )

Does that seem about right?

[Mark]

That is a tad on the long side. A 2.5-3 inch tang would be more typical. I don't have very many dha with a handle loose enough to remove, so I think I will try the magnet test. Clever idea. Ian once posted a series of blade:tang ratios, but I don't have the link. I'll add it here if I can find it.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Mark

That is a tad on the long side. A 2.5-3 inch tang would be more typical.

I hope this doesn't start a new male 'condition' ......tang envy

[katana]

After doing a little research ....a tang of approx. 3" seems fairly typical for a blade of around 20".

I had considered the possibillity that my blade had been shortened (hence the 4.5" tang) but the distal taper would be wrong. Seeing that the brass 'dots' seem to be placed very near the tip (on other examples shown) .....also suggests that this is no 'cut down'.

Personally I prefer the idea of a longer tang .... perhaps the forger of this blade had the same sentiments. From a practical point of view, it may make it more robust and less likely to break (part company with the handle). Is it possible that this blade had a specific use which required a stronger bond between blade and hilt.