What is it?

Ian · 23rd February 2005, 08:53 PM

Seller seemed to cover his bases about the origin of this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6513554996

tom hyle · 24th February 2005, 02:32 AM

Oh snap; how'd I miss that one? That's central African. It may be Kuba but I don't think so. The Kuba fighting sword of this style is called ilwoon, and is illegal to carry except in war. The type seems fairly closely related to seme to me as well (If you've never handled an old seme, let me explain; the narrow blade base is thick, shaftlike, and commonly unsharp, while the wide tip is relatively flat and thin for cutting.) I like these; I'd really like a Kuba one. The Kube ones I've seen have a midribbed base and a flat or flattish tip with a more rounded end than this. Not sure who these come from, but that badass lookin bolster has also a 'Zande look about it. I've seen this type and other variations. Typically the seller calls 'em Kuba, but I don't think they are, or if they are they aren't ilwoon per se, or are a varient. Kuba was traditionally a multiethnic kingdom (or an empire, to get all technical) The ruling tribe, often miscalled a clan, were the Bushoong, and each tribe had some variations in material culture. So these could be Kuba under that understanding, for instance, for all I know. The pommel is often like this on this variety, and I can see a relation to Kuba art; a central Africaness, but it doesn't look Kuba to me. The Konda and/or Mongo ones with the double-hooked ends are often said to be used for work, but I don't know if this is true or not. One time Conogre had a particularly nice one of them, and then I had it, but now it's out in the world with someone else. The seme is used for work.

Andrew · 24th February 2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Oh snap;

lol! Not something I'd ever imagine you saying, Tom.

Ian · 24th February 2005, 04:11 AM

I thought it may have been African and the closest I could find was Figure 47 in Afrikanische Waffen by Werner Fischer and Manfred Zirngibl. This shows a Cameroon knife-sword with gnutail handle attributed to the Jaunde.

Conogre · 24th February 2005, 06:18 AM

Very nice catch...I was eyeballing it intensely, also thinking that it might be Massai related, and was glad to see it go to a good home.
My Africans are now under lock and key, Tom, once I realized most of the great buys were gone!!!**grin**
That was before I realized how much I missed the holes that were left!!
Again, great catch and anything else is learned, please pass it on?

Ian · 24th February 2005, 06:16 PM

I will post better pictures when it arrives. The "striated" look to the blade is a little odd, don't you think? The Jaunde sword in Fischer and Zirngibl has a similar appearance.

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 01:16 AM

I think those striations are roughish forging lines; African art often intentionally uses "crude"ly finished surfaces, sometimes in contrast to smooth-finished areas of the same piece.

23rd February 2005, 08:53 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	What is it? Seller seemed to cover his bases about the origin of this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6513554996

24th February 2005, 04:11 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Thanks Tom I thought it may have been African and the closest I could find was Figure 47 in Afrikanische Waffen by Werner Fischer and Manfred Zirngibl. This shows a Cameroon knife-sword with gnutail handle attributed to the Jaunde.

24th February 2005, 06:16 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Thanks Mike ... I will post better pictures when it arrives. The "striated" look to the blade is a little odd, don't you think? The Jaunde sword in Fischer and Zirngibl has a similar appearance.

24th February 2005, 02:32 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Oh snap; how'd I miss that one? That's central African. It may be Kuba but I don't think so. The Kuba fighting sword of this style is called ilwoon, and is illegal to carry except in war. The type seems fairly closely related to seme to me as well (If you've never handled an old seme, let me explain; the narrow blade base is thick, shaftlike, and commonly unsharp, while the wide tip is relatively flat and thin for cutting.) I like these; I'd really like a Kuba one. The Kube ones I've seen have a midribbed base and a flat or flattish tip with a more rounded end than this. Not sure who these come from, but that badass lookin bolster has also a 'Zande look about it. I've seen this type and other variations. Typically the seller calls 'em Kuba, but I don't think they are, or if they are they aren't ilwoon per se, or are a varient. Kuba was traditionally a multiethnic kingdom (or an empire, to get all technical) The ruling tribe, often miscalled a clan, were the Bushoong, and each tribe had some variations in material culture. So these could be Kuba under that understanding, for instance, for all I know. The pommel is often like this on this variety, and I can see a relation to Kuba art; a central Africaness, but it doesn't look Kuba to me. The Konda and/or Mongo ones with the double-hooked ends are often said to be used for work, but I don't know if this is true or not. One time Conogre had a particularly nice one of them, and then I had it, but now it's out in the world with someone else. The seme is used for work.

24th February 2005, 06:18 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Very nice catch...I was eyeballing it intensely, also thinking that it might be Massai related, and was glad to see it go to a good home. My Africans are now under lock and key, Tom, once I realized most of the great buys were gone!!!grin That was before I realized how much I missed the holes that were left!! Again, great catch and anything else is learned, please pass it on?

25th February 2005, 01:16 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think those striations are roughish forging lines; African art often intentionally uses "crude"ly finished surfaces, sometimes in contrast to smooth-finished areas of the same piece.