Bagobo vs. T'boli

tagalanao · 6th October 2005, 05:56 PM

Hi!

How could one tell if a certain kampilan is Bagobo or T'boli? I'm just still a little confused up to now, even though I've already handled a number of these blades. My guess -- those brass handles with bells hanging are T'boli? Those w/o are Bagobo?

Thanks!

BobT

VANDOO · 6th October 2005, 11:30 PM

OH! IF IT WERE ONLY THAT SIMPLE

I AM NOT A EXPERT BUT THERE ARE SO MANY SIMULARITYS BETWEEN THE TWO AND I THINK THE BELLS ARE SOMETIMES USED BY BOTH GROUPS OR HAVE ALL BEEN LOST OVER TIME SO THAT IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO TELL. I THINK THE ONLY SURE WAY IS IF THERE IS SOME FABRIC ON THE SCABBARD THAT CAN BE IDENTIFIED TO ONE TRIBE OR THE OTHER. EVEN THEN PERHAPS ONE WAS TRADED OR CAPTURED AND SOME LOCAL FABRIC ADDED BY THE NEW OWNER. THERE ARE SEVERAL PATTERNS USED IN THE BRASS HANDLES AND SOMETIMES DESIGNS ARE ON THE SCABBARDS THIS MIGHT BE A WAY TO IDENTIFY THEM BY TRIBE OR EVEN VILLAGE BUT I DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION TO DO SO IF IT EXISTS. GOOD LUCK

zelbone · 7th October 2005, 03:40 AM

Your reasoning sounds good. But I would also look at the shape of the hilt as well. T'boli sword hilts tend to flare out more at the pommel than Bagobo hilts. Vandoo also has a good point about the bells and the use of cloth as an identifying factor. Anyways, I'm no expert either. Attached are are pics of a brass hilt Bagobo sword and and a brass hilt T'boli sword. The Bagobo sword is on top and the T'boli sword on the bottom. In between I added a B'laan sword to separate the two and to add more to the confusion.

BTW...Battara, the cloth I used as the backdrop is the cloth you inquired about. I can send you more pics later. I've been in the middle of a move and just found it the other day. Again I can't guarantee that it is Bagobo or B'laan, Mandaya/Mansaka, or T'boli...but it's most likely Bagobo.

Spunjer · 7th October 2005, 04:18 AM

oh boy, now i'm more confuse.

i was informed by the seller (mang ven of vm antiques, ermita) that this pira has a b'laan handle. and you're saying it's bagobo, zel?

while we're on that subject, where would this pira fit? interesting handle; seems like it has some lumad influence...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Battara · 7th October 2005, 07:58 AM

Let's go backwards (normal for me

). First the handle of the pira that Spunjer is refering is Bagobo (according to the examples that Zelbone mentioned). Second, what I have noticed is that the T'boli use of brass is much more exact in their casting, whereas those Bagobo brass pieces are not as distinct in the handles as the T'boli. And, yes, I too have noticed that the T'boli hilts flare out a lot.

I apparently got the B'laan and Bagobo brass handles confused.

So thank you Zel for the illumination.

Now on the cloth, I will get back to you shortly - you may be the only source I have at present for Bagobo cloth.

tagalanao · 7th October 2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

Your reasoning sounds good. But I would also look at the shape of the hilt as well. T'boli sword hilts tend to flare out more at the pommel than Bagobo hilts. Vandoo also has a good point about the bells and the use of cloth as an identifying factor. Anyways, I'm no expert either. Attached are are pics of a brass hilt Bagobo sword and and a brass hilt T'boli sword. The Bagobo sword is on top and the T'boli sword on the bottom. In between I added a B'laan sword to separate the two and to add more to the confusion.

Thanks, Zelbone! Now I know better. I do come across these blades more often than Moro swords.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

BTW...Battara, the cloth I used as the backdrop is the cloth you inquired about. I can send you more pics later. I've been in the middle of a move and just found it the other day. Again I can't guarantee that it is Bagobo or B'laan, Mandaya/Mansaka, or T'boli...but it's most likely Bagobo.

I have that book titled something like Textiles of Southern Philippines, I think published by UCLA, but I have to look for it yet in the pile we have here at home.

BobT

6th October 2005, 05:56 PM	#1
tagalanao Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lanao, Philippines Posts: 37	Bagobo vs. T'boli Hi! How could one tell if a certain kampilan is Bagobo or T'boli? I'm just still a little confused up to now, even though I've already handled a number of these blades. My guess -- those brass handles with bells hanging are T'boli? Those w/o are Bagobo? Thanks! BobT

7th October 2005, 03:40 AM	#3
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Your reasoning sounds good. But I would also look at the shape of the hilt as well. T'boli sword hilts tend to flare out more at the pommel than Bagobo hilts. Vandoo also has a good point about the bells and the use of cloth as an identifying factor. Anyways, I'm no expert either. Attached are are pics of a brass hilt Bagobo sword and and a brass hilt T'boli sword. The Bagobo sword is on top and the T'boli sword on the bottom. In between I added a B'laan sword to separate the two and to add more to the confusion. BTW...Battara, the cloth I used as the backdrop is the cloth you inquired about. I can send you more pics later. I've been in the middle of a move and just found it the other day. Again I can't guarantee that it is Bagobo or B'laan, Mandaya/Mansaka, or T'boli...but it's most likely Bagobo. Attached Images

6th October 2005, 11:30 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OH! IF IT WERE ONLY THAT SIMPLE I AM NOT A EXPERT BUT THERE ARE SO MANY SIMULARITYS BETWEEN THE TWO AND I THINK THE BELLS ARE SOMETIMES USED BY BOTH GROUPS OR HAVE ALL BEEN LOST OVER TIME SO THAT IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO TELL. I THINK THE ONLY SURE WAY IS IF THERE IS SOME FABRIC ON THE SCABBARD THAT CAN BE IDENTIFIED TO ONE TRIBE OR THE OTHER. EVEN THEN PERHAPS ONE WAS TRADED OR CAPTURED AND SOME LOCAL FABRIC ADDED BY THE NEW OWNER. THERE ARE SEVERAL PATTERNS USED IN THE BRASS HANDLES AND SOMETIMES DESIGNS ARE ON THE SCABBARDS THIS MIGHT BE A WAY TO IDENTIFY THEM BY TRIBE OR EVEN VILLAGE BUT I DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION TO DO SO IF IT EXISTS. GOOD LUCK

7th October 2005, 04:18 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	oh boy, now i'm more confuse. i was informed by the seller (mang ven of vm antiques, ermita) that this pira has a b'laan handle. and you're saying it's bagobo, zel? while we're on that subject, where would this pira fit? interesting handle; seems like it has some lumad influence... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

7th October 2005, 07:58 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Let's go backwards (normal for me ). First the handle of the pira that Spunjer is refering is Bagobo (according to the examples that Zelbone mentioned). Second, what I have noticed is that the T'boli use of brass is much more exact in their casting, whereas those Bagobo brass pieces are not as distinct in the handles as the T'boli. And, yes, I too have noticed that the T'boli hilts flare out a lot. I apparently got the B'laan and Bagobo brass handles confused. So thank you Zel for the illumination. Now on the cloth, I will get back to you shortly - you may be the only source I have at present for Bagobo cloth.