A cup hilt sword ... atypical

fernando · 7th January 2016, 08:08 PM

I would say atypical in what concerns an unusual set of dimensions.
The bowl is extremely small, with its 11 cms. The quillons are consistent with the bowl, measuring 18 cms.
Just for comparison, the opposite situation that i know (and have) is a bowl with 18 cms with quillons of 32 cms.
But what makes it more 'unique' is that the blade, on the contrary, is of the largest type around, with its 43 mms. However unusually short, with only 69 cms.
It sure is not a random set up; where this came from, there is another one with an even smaller bowl, although with a more proportional blade, but still with a similar approach.
Judging by the blade, this must be a XVII century sword, with the known inscription MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO.
The grip appears to be horn. Some residual mark in the pommel reveals that it has once had the knucleguard srewed to it and was later modified to the welding mode; in the period, i would say.

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CSinTX · 8th January 2016, 06:13 PM

I don't have much to add besides I really like it! That blade is impressive. Were smaller/ shorter cup hilts ever known to be common for naval use?

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2016, 09:16 PM

The cuphilt was of course well known in use by officers on Portuguese and Spanish ships, and the idea of these being remounted with a heavy fighting blade seems more than likely as suggested. Swords of traditional form were of course being remounted with heavier 'arming' blades in the latter 17th into the 18th century which became the 'bilbo' type swords with fully developed rapier type hilts.

While something like this seems certainly an anomaly, it seems a most attractive and substantial weapon. If not mistaken, the inscription seems Portuguese favored .

fernando · 9th January 2016, 03:21 PM

For as much as we burn our neurons, we never sure of how a particular weapon atypical composition came to be as it is ... unless there is visual (written) evidence of its evolution. That these swords in general were used aboard ship we must accept as of common sense; not that they were necessarily naval weapons, but because those who used them were either basicaly in land as also often boarded. I take it that their length, being evetually shorter, is not a purpose for naval use, as when these men came ashore for battle they would need a blade with 'decent' proportions. The fact that there is, at least, one more example with the same bowl dimensions where this one came from, narrows the range of conjectures. I see in another sword that i have, with the same inscription but with a longer blade that, the lettering is in the same distance from the guard. This could (or not) mean that this blade was shortened during its existence, either due to have been broken, which i don't favor, or because its owner was a small person... notwithstanding he wished to have a strong blade.
I would say that the inscription, being written in Spanish, was a Solingen marketing trick directed to Spaniards, a much more potential market segment ... and its similarity with portuguese woul also grant it a ride. Amazingly we can find this inscription in countless swords out there, but always engraved in the same fashion and (mis)spell; so it seems as this pattern was widespread to several blade smiths. In the work AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES (Eduardo Nobre ) comes a sword similar to the one in discussion, with the same inscription, with only slightly larger bowl and quillons, a slightly narrower blade but with a more regular length. Also interesting is that blades with this lettering sometimes bear a crucified Christ in the ricasso, possibly to go along with the expressed in the blade motto; probably, but not that i am certain, to identify a specific blade smith.

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M ELEY · 10th January 2016, 10:08 AM

An excellent acquisition, Fernando! As you stated, swords such as these did make it to sea. Contingents of soldiers were placed aboard the Treasure Fleets (for obvious reasons) and, in my opinion, to keep order in general. On English ships, it was the royal marines in charge of discipline and to discourage mutinies. In the case of Spanish and Portuguese ships, it was the common soldiers of the army. A shorter bladed sword such as this would have made a nice shipboard weapon.

fernando · 10th January 2016, 06:35 PM

Thsnk you Mark.
Always present when discussing these weapons ... as always careful when it touches mutiny issues

7th January 2016, 08:08 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cup hilt sword ... atypical I would say atypical in what concerns an unusual set of dimensions. The bowl is extremely small, with its 11 cms. The quillons are consistent with the bowl, measuring 18 cms. Just for comparison, the opposite situation that i know (and have) is a bowl with 18 cms with quillons of 32 cms. But what makes it more 'unique' is that the blade, on the contrary, is of the largest type around, with its 43 mms. However unusually short, with only 69 cms. It sure is not a random set up; where this came from, there is another one with an even smaller bowl, although with a more proportional blade, but still with a similar approach. Judging by the blade, this must be a XVII century sword, with the known inscription MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO. The grip appears to be horn. Some residual mark in the pommel reveals that it has once had the knucleguard srewed to it and was later modified to the welding mode; in the period, i would say. . Attached Images

8th January 2016, 06:13 PM	#2
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	I don't have much to add besides I really like it! That blade is impressive. Were smaller/ shorter cup hilts ever known to be common for naval use? Last edited by CSinTX; 8th January 2016 at 09:26 PM.

9th January 2016, 03:21 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For as much as we burn our neurons, we never sure of how a particular weapon atypical composition came to be as it is ... unless there is visual (written) evidence of its evolution. That these swords in general were used aboard ship we must accept as of common sense; not that they were necessarily naval weapons, but because those who used them were either basicaly in land as also often boarded. I take it that their length, being evetually shorter, is not a purpose for naval use, as when these men came ashore for battle they would need a blade with 'decent' proportions. The fact that there is, at least, one more example with the same bowl dimensions where this one came from, narrows the range of conjectures. I see in another sword that i have, with the same inscription but with a longer blade that, the lettering is in the same distance from the guard. This could (or not) mean that this blade was shortened during its existence, either due to have been broken, which i don't favor, or because its owner was a small person... notwithstanding he wished to have a strong blade. I would say that the inscription, being written in Spanish, was a Solingen marketing trick directed to Spaniards, a much more potential market segment ... and its similarity with portuguese woul also grant it a ride. Amazingly we can find this inscription in countless swords out there, but always engraved in the same fashion and (mis)spell; so it seems as this pattern was widespread to several blade smiths. In the work AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES (Eduardo Nobre ) comes a sword similar to the one in discussion, with the same inscription, with only slightly larger bowl and quillons, a slightly narrower blade but with a more regular length. Also interesting is that blades with this lettering sometimes bear a crucified Christ in the ricasso, possibly to go along with the expressed in the blade motto; probably, but not that i am certain, to identify a specific blade smith. . Attached Images

8th January 2016, 09:16 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	The cuphilt was of course well known in use by officers on Portuguese and Spanish ships, and the idea of these being remounted with a heavy fighting blade seems more than likely as suggested. Swords of traditional form were of course being remounted with heavier 'arming' blades in the latter 17th into the 18th century which became the 'bilbo' type swords with fully developed rapier type hilts. While something like this seems certainly an anomaly, it seems a most attractive and substantial weapon. If not mistaken, the inscription seems Portuguese favored .

10th January 2016, 10:08 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	An excellent acquisition, Fernando! As you stated, swords such as these did make it to sea. Contingents of soldiers were placed aboard the Treasure Fleets (for obvious reasons) and, in my opinion, to keep order in general. On English ships, it was the royal marines in charge of discipline and to discourage mutinies. In the case of Spanish and Portuguese ships, it was the common soldiers of the army. A shorter bladed sword such as this would have made a nice shipboard weapon.

10th January 2016, 06:35 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thsnk you Mark. Always present when discussing these weapons ... as always careful when it touches mutiny issues