How to get new leather/hide old ?

[Martin Lubojacky]

Please, within my restoring activities (or better attempts) I am looking for an advice how to "age" the new leather (on scabbard).
Regards,
Martin

[Shakethetrees]

Impossible.

I have been a professional restorer for over thirty years and have never been satisfied with any "trick" that claims to age leather.

So, the thing to do is to get some old leather and use it.

Get to know an antique furniture restorer/upholsterer. Leather covered chairs, sofas, etc. come in and the old covering is stripped away and disposed of.

Different projects have different requirements: grips on swords and knives call for very thin material. Scabbards, thicker.

Don't shy away from pieces that have cracking or shows that the surface has been distressed. It's hard to get a good piece of the right size no matter the condition. The distressing and cracking can work in your favor.

The only kinds to stay away from is that afflicted by what is called "red rot" where the leather turns to powder and crumbles with even minor handling, and the kind that has become so stiff and brittle that it can't be bent even gently. Don't waste your time with either.

The material used has to be able to withstand being manipulated. No neat's foot oils, lexol, Pecards leather cream or other "cure" will turn back the clock even a little. They even speed up its decline! Stay from them like the plague. If you must use them, use em on products that are still in current use, like shoes, belts, ladies' handbags, etc. but never on antique leather. Period.

If my diatribe has not caused any of you to hit the back button and your curiosity has been awakened, I will be glad to give some advanced advice and more tips on the subject.

[Rick]

Leather Therapy restorer and conditioner .
I don't really wish to contradict others' wisdom; but this is one hell of a good product .

[Shakethetrees]

It could be a great product for leather still in use, but all conditioners contain fatty acids or petroleum products that turn aggressive and hasten the decay. I have seen old stitching (cotton thread) break after application of some miracle product that makes claims of being scientifically formulated, etc., etc., etc.

In the last thirty plus years I have tried just about everything one time or another. All rubbish.

If the leather in question is still in use, that's another thing entirely.

Care for long term preservation is another matter entirely. And, with preservation, nothing is done to the object that can't be undone. You can't un-smear something that soaks into the body of the leather. Neutral waxes, like Renaissance Wax are the exception. They do not "feed" the leather, but lay on the surface.

Do the research. I have.

[Sajen]

Hello Shakethetrees,

I've used boot polish on some of my leather sheaths. The have get a nice look again. Was it a mistake? I think what is good for my shoes can't be wrong for the scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Shakethetrees,

I've used boot polish on some of my leather sheaths. The have get a nice look again. Was it a mistake? I think what is good for my shoes can't be wrong for the scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

No, boot polish and shoe polish are generally OK. They do not "feed" the leather, but sit in a layer on top. It's also a good protective coating to help the old leather resist deterioration from handling, etc.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

No, boot polish and shoe polish are generally OK. They do not "feed" the leather, but sit in a layer on top. It's also a good protective coating to help the old leather resist deterioration from handling, etc.

Thank you, good news!

[Ken Maddock]

To age leather I do the following
Depending if scabbard or handle
Either way New hide is full of dye generally, I soak it in water to take as much of the dye out as possible, one or two days with lots of rinsing
Then I form the leather onto whatever former I am using for scabbard and stitch up
Then I use sand paper 200 grit or so to rough up the edges and then polish out the rough with 800 grit
Bend and crease scabbard lots, then use old engine oil and dirt off workshop floor and rub into scabbard,
Rip out some of stitches and it should have the old look

For handles more or less same except no creasing possible
I have had reasonable results with running a flame over the grips to get it nearly crispy but it can go shiny if chrome was used in the tanning

I work in a well stocked lab and have I tried lots of chemicals but none really improved on above

A crucial rule would be to make whatever you are doing perfectly as distressing is not an excuse for bad workmanship, this can be weird making a grip very carefully and getting it so smooth and then hammering it to bits
Have fun
Ken

[Martin Lubojacky]

Thank you all for your inputs. I think Shakethetrees perfectly understand my problem. I decided to complete nice central Asian sabre, i. e. to make new (old like) scabbard. I gave the order to the restorer (he is restorer amateur, by original profession he is silversmith). I am not satisfied with the result, since it is quite obvious at the first glance, that the leather cover is very new. I will do my best to make it "old" now, to make it fragile and dry. Currently, the "completed" sword looks like if you pack old romantic beauty to "disneyland". Shakethetrees unfortunately confirmed my suspicion, ie. that it will be very difficult, if not impossible.... Under such circumstances it is really better to leave old swords without scabbards, than to waste the money for doubtful results ...

Other inputs are concerning conservation/preservation of old leather (scabbards). This is also very interesting (and for collectors important) topic. I have good experience with ordinary beeswax and with anil shoe polish. As Shakethetrees said, the surface remains protected and, I think probably it is also more resistant to airhumidity changes and polution. All my items which I treated like this 15 yers ago are still intact (this is my amaterur evaluation, this is not expert´s receipe - who nows how in this way treated leather items will look like after fifty years). As far as old african shields are concerned, I tried lanolin dissolved in technical gasoline. It gives the shield its original weight and elasticity again. But such "penetrating" methods are, as Shakethetrees said, dangerous (as I heard - while using incorrect solvent proportions (too much lanolin) or another unrecommended fats or oils, the orgininal chemical structures/bonds could be detroyed in the leather and the item could slowly decompose. There is also aesthetic risk - dark stains could develop).

There is also another problem, which I ll have to solve again soon: To enlarge original old and dry scabbard, which shrank during the years when the sword was out ....

Best regards,
Martin

[Tim Simmons]

You could leave the scabbard somewhere it is exposed to the weather, year long with some monitoring. Wind, rain, drying sun rather like a leather roof rack strap will soon look old. I find old leather will respond to olive oil. However really old leather has basically had it as suggested.

[blue lander]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

No, boot polish and shoe polish are generally OK. They do not "feed" the leather, but sit in a layer on top. It's also a good protective coating to help the old leather resist deterioration from handling, etc.

What about something like Lexol? Only good for leather still in use? Would Lanolin be good for leather not still in use?

[Shakethetrees]

I was tiptoeing around the Lexol issue.

This was the exact stuff I used that first made me aware of the "feeding" problem!

A WWI Sam brown belt that needed a little TLC came my way. It was almost wearable, but I lexolled it following directions. Beginning with one end and working my way along, it seemed to be going OK.

When I went back to do a wipedown with a dry rag, all the stitching broke and I effectively now had a Sam Brown parts kit!

Attempt number two brought ruination to a chinstrap from a WWI American tin hat. No stitching, the leather just flaked away from the surface.

Attempt three (I'm a slow learner!) effectively took care of some old boots- the stitching self destructed, leaving a pile of leather fit for a shoemakers bench, and nothing more.

So, Lexol?

I wouldn't have it in my possession. The stuff should be made illegal.

[Shakethetrees]

Lexol attempts to " feed" leather, as does lanolin.

Stay away from all products that are not reversible.

Shoe polish or Renaissance Wax protects without chemically altering the stuff it's supposed to protect.

[colin henshaw]

From recent personal experience - I used one of those "leather dressings" on 19th century cracked and dried leather straps. Did not soften the leather in any way, just made it darker...

[Martin Lubojacky]

Yes, I fully agree, there is big danger with using of "feeding" products which are not reversible. On the other hand, a think there is difference among various such products.

For examle:
I do not have any experience with Lexol, but it is quite obvious, that Lexol is "commercial name" of product and I am not sure, if we know its real and exact (chemical) composition (and rates of ingredients) - detailed recipe is not always put out. On the other side, Lanolin is so called "chemical trivial name" of an essential and natural substance (composed of various chemicals, but the composition is well known to professional all over the world). From Wiki: Lanolin is a wax. Historically, many pharmacopoeias have referred to lanolin as wool fat; however, as lanolin lacks glycerides (glycerol esters), it is not a true fat. Lanolin primarily consists of sterol esters instead. Lanolin's waterproofing property aids sheep in shedding water from their coats.... Lanolin's role in nature is to protect wool and skin against the ravages of climate and the environment;...

But to shorten this input: Once I discussed with the restorers of Náprstek´s Muzeum in Prague the problematics of collecting African artefacts and we spoke about old shields made of heavy leather, too. Their standpoint was not clear to mee too much since they would like to avoid everything and if possible to close items to some specialised depositories/safes, where everything would be constant. Nevertheless they admitted, that if necessary, solution of Lanolin could be used - but in a small quantities and very carefully....
(nevertheless, this problematic is far away from what I am trying to solve now - how to make new leather old...)

[Martin Lubojacky]

Small addition from my experience:

If restorers from museums in Prague recommends anything, they always operate with chemicals or on the substances level - never commercial products (i.e. as far as terminology is concerned). I think restorers have generally mapped leverage on the chemical level, in the case of lanolin its molecular interactions with the chemical bonds in the leather.

[Kubur]

Hello,

I have a problem with the leather of an old Mandingo sword.
- Scabbard and grip -
What can I do to consolidate the cracks in the leather?
Some cracks are quite big...
Thank you

Best,
Kubur

[Shakethetrees]

Simply put: were swerving into the territory of organic chemistry.

I'm sure there are ways to help old leather at the theoretical level under strict laboratory conditions.

Most of us out here in the real world do not have the training, facilities or narrowly defined interest to achieve this level of success.

Therefore, I would suggest that the various home remedies and commercial products are not suitable.

Remember that commercial products are developed to appeal to the largest market share they can get. Antique leather is such a minuscule percentage of the leather market at large that this should be evident.

Over time, the chemistry in leather changes as it ages. The proof is surface flaking, red rot, stiffness, brittleness, etc. Something that is formulated for leather in its original state is just not suitable for the different (aged) material.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Finally, we made the sheath "somehow old" (ethanol treatment and flame annealing). "Original" sheath looked like this: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912(the sword was bought years ago from Artzi and Avner). The wooden body of the sheath was new that time, so we decided to replace the leather (also new taht time) and the fittings. After several attempts it is not so bad, I think final result is better, than it was before.
Thanks for consultation.
Martin

[Martin Lubojacky]

Active link
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912

[spiral]

Ahhh in that case dont bother etching again, if it was clear wootz or laminated it would show as Artzi would have already expertly etched it.

Spiral