Looking for Information on this Kris.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi guys, I know I am in the right spot to ask for more information about what I have here. Talking to other forumites via email has prompted me to bring this little fella out of the display cabinets, I beleive it to be a Javanese Kris from about 1860. I welcome everyones knowledgable input into learning more about it and it's history.

thanks in advance

Gavin

[Alam Shah]

This lovely fittings looks Malay, to me.
The blade had been repaired. The 'belalai gajah' (or kembang kacang, the curled area at the base of the blade) seems like an add-on work, the weld lines does not flow towards the curl. The flow of the 'luks' (waves), seems 'disturbed'. Number of luks...hmmm... 10 or 11 (?). Overall, an authentic old piece.

[David]

I am not convinced that the belalai gajah is an add-on, but there does seem to be something strange going on there. Possibly a good traditional washing might reveal more.
Certainly not Javanese as Shahrial has said. Malay, possibly Sulawesi???
I am curious why you suspect about 1860 as a possible date. It is certainly possible, but it is a bit more exacting than i think most would venture. Do you have some sort of provenance that has lead you to this date?
BTW, i like the dress, especially the brass pendokok.. Is the toe of the sheath made of horn?

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

I am not convinced that the belalai gajah is an add-on, but there does seem to be something strange going on there. Possibly a good traditional washing might reveal more.

What I meant is... it had one, but broke and repaired with an add-on to replace the broken portion.

Originally Posted by David

Certainly not Javanese as Shahrial has said. Malay, possibly Sulawesi???

I don't think it's Sulawesi... I'm leaning more toward Riau-Lingga.

Originally Posted by David

I am curious why you suspect about 1860 as a possible date. It is certainly possible, but it is a bit more exacting than i think most would venture. Do you have some sort of provenance that has lead you to this date?
...

Yes, I'm curious too, about the date...

[Battara]

I was also thinking Bugis, especially in the wranga (top part of thet scabbard) , the hilt, and the selut (the cup that holds the hilt).

BTW - the hilt is on backwards

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

This lovely fittings looks Malay, to me.
The blade had been repaired. The 'belalai gajah' (or kembang kacang, the curled area at the base of the blade) seems like an add-on work, the weld lines does not flow towards the curl. The flow of the 'luks' (waves), seems 'disturbed'. Number of luks...hmmm... 10 or 11 (?). Overall, an authentic old piece.

Hi Alam Shah, Thank you for your reply. I don't think the blade has been repaired, I have included another 2 photos showing the detail of the Ganja, what is shown in the first photo of the original posting is what I would just call an age spot. I don't think from holding it and looking at this Kris, that the Belalai Gajah is an add on, again see photo, but then I don't know much of the forging processes of knives. I can say that there is amazing detail, I'd even go so far as to say that I can see the Elephants eyes, though not shown very well in the photos. With regards to the luks, I too am confused on this matter, if I was to just count them I would say 10, but if I included the head of the Belalai Gajah as the first wave, I would say 11.

Originally Posted by David

I am not convinced that the belalai gajah is an add-on, but there does seem to be something strange going on there. Possibly a good traditional washing might reveal more.
Certainly not Javanese as Shahrial has said. Malay, possibly Sulawesi???
I am curious why you suspect about 1860 as a possible date. It is certainly possible, but it is a bit more exacting than i think most would venture. Do you have some sort of provenance that has lead you to this date?
BTW, i like the dress, especially the brass pendokok.. Is the toe of the sheath made of horn?

Thank you for you reply and interest too David. Given the concensus on it's origins I will look further with what references have been supplied. As for dating this piece to 1860ish, I have only used an almost identical Kris as a point of reference with this, it is sitting in a local arms collection and knowing that the collector does do some home work on his items I used this as a starting point, some have placed it as early as the 14th century, but all I am told is taken with a grain of salt until my own research can confirm or deny any claims. I am guessing that a traditional cleaning might reveal more but I am quite taken by the old patina it carries and in particular the somewhat green hue this blade has in places. I too like the pendokok, for some reason it reminds me of the great Angkor architecture. The toe of the sheath is horn too David.

Originally Posted by Battara

I was also thinking Bugis, especially in the wranga (top part of thet scabbard) , the hilt, and the selut (the cup that holds the hilt).

BTW - the hilt is on backwards

Thank you for your input too Battara. With regards to the hilt being on backwards, you are correct but given the dimensions of the wrangka, if the hilt was on the way you suggest, I do feel the piece as a whole would look odd, out of balance and not in proportion, images I have seen of this style of Kris have this particular type of hilt sitting at a right angle from the wrangka.

Everyones help thus far has been fabulous, thank you.

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

With regards to the hilt being on backwards, you are correct but given the dimensions of the wrangka, if the hilt was on the way you suggest, I do feel the piece as a whole would look odd, out of balance and not in proportion, images I have seen of this style of Kris have this particular type of hilt sitting at a right angle from the wrangka.

Actually Freebooter, i think that for those of us who collect this particular style the piece as a whole looks odd, out of balance and not in proportion the way it is now.
I think you can be fairly certain that this keris isn't 14th century. The 1860 date would be much closer. I only wondered why such a specific dat as opposed to saying, say, 19th century.
Shahrial, thanks for being more specific. I think i see what you are seeing now, but a washing would probably clear it up. The new picture though, showing the reverse side, doesn't look the disturbed.

[A. G. Maisey]

In counting the waves in a blade you start on the first wave above the gandik and criss-cross the blade, finishing on the same side that you started. The total must be uneven. Even in the exceptionally rare style of keris where the point turns to the wadidang, it is best to add a nominal luk to give the required uneven number. A keris is male. Even numbers are female. This blade has 11 waves, and the tenth wave is not difficult to see.

I do not think that the kembang kacang has been replaced or repaired. In the close-up the metal grain is quite distinct, but there does seem to be some sort of a score across the base of the kembang kacang on one side.

I have had in my possession a number of keris of this generic Bugis style that had the hilt orientated as is the hilt on this keris. In all cases they had been fixed that way in the culture from which they came, as they had been fixed with damar, and were in original condition. I have also seen a photo of somebody wearing a keris of this style with the hilt on "back to front". I have no idea why they were sometimes fixed in this way, but they were.

Exact area of origin?

I have no idea. Generically it is Bugis, but Bugis from where? Don't know. I will observe that it does not display the typical Bugis blade cross section, so it unlikely to be Sulawesi. Peninsula? North Coast Sumatra? Anybody's guess is as good as mine.

Age? Looks second half 19th century to me, but that is just opinion, and cannot be backed up with analysis a la tangguh, as we can do with Jawa blades.

All in all, I reckon its a pretty decent old piece. If the hilt is loosely fixed , ie, held by tension only, twist it around. If it is not, leave it as it is. There are precedents. Here is an example.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In counting the waves in a blade you start on the first wave above the gandik and criss-cross the blade, finishing on the same side that you started. The total must be uneven. Even in the exceptionally rare style of keris where the point turns to the wadidang, it is best to add a nominal luk to give the required uneven number. A keris is male. Even numbers are female. This blade has 11 waves, and the tenth wave is not difficult to see.

Thank you for your help Alan, I have read many of your threads with great interest and continue to follow this forum quite enthusiastically in the back ground. I am grateful to have the starting point of the luks on this Kris pointed out to me.
With regards to the hilt being turned the correct way...it is rock solid so it will have to stay as is.
In further research, do you think the brass pendokok would be a help in finding it's origins or in your opinion are there better reference points within this Kris to follow up?
You have all given me much food for thought and points of reference for further research, thank you.
Just as an interest and I know this subject is quite speculative, but what monetary value would you put on this piece, I only ask as it has a twin brother that I spoke of above, sitting in a collection and if I was to make an offer what would be considered fair.

best regards

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Gavin old mate, we don't don't talk about the filthy lucre in this place.

No mention of money, valuations. commercial opinions, or even the barest hint of anything that might smell of commerce.

The hilt may be firmly fixed, but it would be easy to remove if necessary, however, since it is firm it is likely that way because of damar, rather than araldite---at least I'd like to think so-- my remarks were a suggestion that it be left like that.

Gavin, unless we know that a keris was collected in a certain place, and that all components are stylisticly correct for that place, it is very often quite difficult to say that keris from areas outside the major classifications originated in such and such a place. I have had many keris with excellent provenance dating back in some cases more than 100 years, referred to me for identification. Often these keris will be a mix of parts from various places, periods and styles. Once you move away from a kraton influenced area it seems that people have always grabbed whatever they could to mount their keris. I recently obtained a really beautiful keris in a broken Solo gayaman, the blade was South Sumatra gonjo iras, the hilt was textbook Bugis, the pendongkok was textbook Palembang. It was collected in Sumatra in approximately 1880.

To me, this keris looks Peninsula because of the blade cross section, standard of workmanship, and material; the wrongko looks like a coastal area of maybe North Sumatra, but really, I know diddley squat about these sort of keris. If somebody else says different and can give cogent reasons I'll believe them.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Alam Shah, Thank you for your reply. I don't think the blade has been repaired, I have included another 2 photos showing the detail of the Ganja, what is shown in the first photo of the original posting is what I would just call an age spot. I don't think from holding it and looking at this Kris, that the Belalai Gajah is an add on, again see photo, but then I don't know much of the forging processes of knives. I can say that there is amazing detail, I'd even go so far as to say that I can see the Elephants eyes, though not shown very well in the photos. With regards to the luks, I too am confused on this matter, if I was to just count them I would say 10, but if I included the head of the Belalai Gajah as the first wave, I would say 11.
....

The newer pictures showed that the belalai gajah is intact, not repaired on the reverse side. I stand corrected, the flow is there and 11 luks it is then. Gazing on the blade, many abstract forms may appear.

Originally Posted by freebooter

... some have placed it as early as the 14th century, but all I am told is taken with a grain of salt until my own research can confirm or deny any claims. I am guessing that a traditional cleaning might reveal more but I am quite taken by the old patina it carries and in particular the somewhat green hue this blade has in places. I too like the pendokok, for some reason it reminds me of the great Angkor architecture. The toe of the sheath is horn too David.
....

19th century would be my estimate. The bugis pendokok, is widely used in the malay archipelago, (peninsular malaysia, sumatra, riau-lingga...etc), so by virtue of this alone, it would be difficult to determine origin. I like this form too.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you for the heads up Alan, I probably should have read the sticky threads a bit more closely, in particular #5 in the code of conduct, I do apologise fellow forumites, I will keep this type of question to myself.

Thanks again guys for norrowing all my speculation down to a more accurate place of origin, all input has been fantastic thus far and is interesting to hear about Kris being "put togethers" as far back as the late 1800's. Do you think this is the norm that influences tended to be a mixture of parts or just a result of amateur collection in the days of old?

thanks again

Gav

[A. G. Maisey]

The example I quoted was obtained in Sumatra by a seaman who worked on trading ships and was supposedly taken from a Sumatran gentleman in a fight. That could be family legend, but this information was given to me in an honest fashion and situation.

I've seen other stuff too that was a mix. Recently had a piece obtained as a gift in the the 1930's from a village chief in Sumatra referred to me. From memory that was Bugis/Jawa/ Palembang + some unidentifiable part ---forget the precise details, but it was a total mix.

Yeah, western collectors mix things too, as do dealers, but it has been happening in local areas for years also.

[David]

That's a funky looking sheath on that example you posted Alan. Beautiful wood.
I certainly won't argue that occasionally you will find a bugis keris from an indigenous source with this type of hilt orientation...but i just can't imagine what kind of proper grip the owner could have when using his keris as a weapon.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

That's a funky looking sheath on that example you posted Alan. Beautiful wood.
I certainly won't argue that occasionally you will find a bugis keris from an indigenous source with this type of hilt orientation...but i just can't imagine what kind of proper grip the owner could have when using his keris as a weapon.

Alan's example reminds me of my piece... [ see here ].
As for hilt orientation, I've seen pieces fixed solid to that orientation, (an example would be one of Paul de Souza's piece). David, I can't imagine as well. If the wielder is a left hander (like myself), the blade orientation would also be at an angle from the other side.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, its quite pretty, and similar to Sharial's example. I do have others with this back to front handle, but I knew where this one was and could grab it immediately without having to look for it. I've wondered about the weapon function myself, and have thought that maybe it is turned back to front like this for some social reason, possibly indicating that the owner does not use it as a weapon for some reason or other.

Incidentally, the blade is also similar.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi guys, I have attached a photo of my oversized hands holding this blade and it seems very natural and where my forefinger is adds a lot of support, I thought I'd just include it for reference.

thanks again

Gav

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... I've wondered about the weapon function myself, and have thought that maybe it is turned back to front like this for some social reason, possibly indicating that the owner does not use it as a weapon for some reason or other.

Incidentally, the blade is also similar.

For social function's perhaps... but why secure it at that position rendering the weapon less effective? If the blade is similar, I would be interested in the piece...

[A. G. Maisey]

Very similar Shahrial, and I myself am most interested in this keris. I have been looking after it for about 40 something years now, I brought back from total destruction --- the burl wrongko was in pieces, the blade was bent and in very poor condition. This keris is a very good friend of mine.

I did not mean "social functions", I meant for a reason associated with society--- ie, a social reason.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi guys, I have attached a photo of my oversized hands holding this blade and it seems very natural and where my forefinger is adds a lot of support, I thought I'd just include it for reference.

thanks again

Gav

The blade is supposed to be horizontal when held. Search the forum, there are a few pictures of how a keris is held.

[BluErf]

Hi,

I think this keris is a Straits Bugis keris, and most likely from the Sumatran side.

The tapering batang and the style of the buntut tekak lipas ("cockroach throat") is not typical of peninsula malaysia; it is not so rounded, and the 'v' part bordering the batang is too far apart.

The other hint is the hilt. Peninsula hulu kerdas usually does not curve that much downwards.

The sampir is probably congruent with the Riau-Lingga style, though many people would confuse it with the very similar Terengganu style. The Riau-Lingga sampir style has a 'fuller body' and usually a more curving top line.

[rasdan]

Hi,

Just guessing. My bet is that this is a malay keris that comes from northern peninsula, posibbly Kedah. Quite a number of keris coming out from Kedah has this kind of fittings. However, the blade is normally of the jalak jantan/betina type which this one is not. The hilt in my opinion does not belong to the sheath. It seems that it is of a later work. This type of sheath usually come with a jawa demam hilt. However the combination is still valid, if we want to accept that the fittings are Sumatran. It is also possible that this is a North Peninsula (not east coast) blade, but its just a guess.

[BluErf]

Hi Rasdan,

Why do you think that the hilt is a later work? I think both the hilt and sheath are contemporaries to each other.

The blade of this keris could be found in either side of the Straits.

[rasdan]

Hi Blu,
Yes, the combination is still valid. I think that its later because its from a different wood from the sampir. As far as i can see from the pics it looks much softer the work is almost probably from a different person. What i observe is that, later hilt usually uses softer wood. The blade quality and form looks quite different from the east cost one. But again, this is just a guessing game.

[David]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The blade is supposed to be horizontal when held. Search the forum, there are a few pictures of how a keris is held.

Gavin, Shahrial is absolutely correct on this. The way you are holding your keris with it's opposite hilt orientation is not the way one generally would use a keris in a fight. I have attached a some photos from past threads, but if you search the forums you will no doubt find some more.

[Battara]

This is the way the hilt should be (or at least perpendicular to the blade still with the the shorter part toward the thumb and forefinger). David is right on the money - this is the way to use it to fight and be functional.

[PenangsangII]

Very unique gripping technique AlamShah Normally Bugis Sumatran (Central (I think)hilt style feels so good if held like the one AlamShah showed

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks All.

Looking at the black and white image of the kris being held, I can imagine this being quite a positive grip, looking at the colour image, although you tell me it is correct and I have no knowledge otherwise, I could see in the heat of fighting with sweat and blood being present, the grip on the handle does not look to convincing enough to be rigid, especially if resisitance like bone was met square one. I will however source a local Kris with the handle on the correct way and try it for myself.

Thanks for everyones input on the subject of this Kris and other questions.

regards

Gavin