I just couldn't wait!!!

[Gavin Nugent]

I just couldn't wait to post this Chinese Halberd.

I only won it about ten minutes ago and Fedex should have it to me in a week or so.

A lucky find I feel. When I first stumbled accross it, I did consult a learned collector of Chinese swords in Hong Kong to ask for the correct name of this piece, he called it a Ching Long Yan Yue dai dao, what this translates to in English I do not know but if anyone can help, it would be appreciated.
I am taken by the size and thickness of the blade, along with the unusual seven star inlays and the brass or gold??? inlay on the blade too, I do wonder if the gold on the blade represents fire from the dragon's mouth?

The dragon too is very nice and of good quality and a rather nice change from the usual flatter kind sometimes encountered.
It weighs in at about 27pounds and is 8'4"long, as I understand it, the halberd would have been kept in a temple in it's former life.

Comments and comparisons are most welcome and photos, text or pics from old books if anyone has them?

regards

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

I can well understand your excitement Gav, and I'd like to be the first to congratulate you!!! Well done!
While Chinese weapons are outside my usual field of study, I look forward to developing posts here to learn more on this exciting and likely very important example. I think you are extremely wise Gav, to move focus to follow your interest in Chinese weapon forms, which is truly often under represented in most arms discussions we are familiar with as well as published resources.

It's gonna be a long week Gav! and congratulations again!

All the best,
Jim

[Valjhun]

I do not know anything about them, but WOW!!!! I LIKE THAT!!!!

[josh stout]

What a nice piece. I think I can help you with the name somewhat. Ching Long is referring to the Qianlong dynasty (1736-1796). I cannot help with the dating, but it could well be true. “Yan Yue” (there are some alternate spellings) is the name for this weapon in the Imperial regulations, translating as “reclining moon”. “Dai dao” I think is a southern dialect version of da dao meaning just “big knife”. You could very properly refer to the halberd as simply a yan yue dao. More commonly, but less properly this would be called a gwandao in martial arts circles because of its association with the legendary General Gwan.
It appears to missing the but spike, which I would have been interested to see, but in general this is an amazing find. The quality is very high particularly in the dragon. Most look much more flat. Check to see if the eyes look like they are missing a bit. In some high end things, the eyes had a separate part designed to wobble around that is usually lost.
I think you have found an outstanding example of something that is quite hard to find in any condition.
Josh

[josh stout]

Just to be clear, there are examples like this that turn out to be decorative pieces for Chinese temples throughout the regions of the Chinese Diaspora, but mostly southern China and SEA. Check the blade for signs of folding. That will tell you if you are looking at a weapon or a ritual piece.

I think you are looking at a weapon, but when I look at that dragon I wonder a bit.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for coiming in Jim, Valjhun and Josh.

You are absolutely right Jim, it is going to be a long week and maybe longer if they take their time invoicing me. Thank you very much for the congratulations too, it is not very often such a rare piece pops it's head up in the world and it is nice to know average joe can still find them at very affordable prices.

As much as I like handling all types of swords and knives, since the birth of my son, it is time to focus on just one other interest which is my true calling, the Chinese weapons. I too am fasinated with the martial applications of such weapons.

Thanks too Valjhun, seeing it also gave me the WOW feeling too and I knew it just had to come home with me. The unusual always gets my vote.

Josh, glad you popped by with your input, lots to talk about with this one, and speculate too.

Thanks Rick, aka Rsword for taking an interest with my end of the world in email communication, as always, I am appreciative of all input that you have on a myriad of subjects.

Josh I was supprised and very happy to hear the Ching Long dating from my friend in Hong Kong. I have a lovely ivory foo dog censor from the Qianlong Dynasty with the seal mark of the era, so I wonder if I'll find a similar mark on this piece?

I immeadiately thought of the Kwandao in martial arts talk but this just seemed so much larger by proprtions that I had to ask further. The Hong Kong naming of this and Southern dialect connection you speak of makes sense.

A temple piece makes sense too as I am sure only royalty and the like could afford a huge weapon of such quality, I wouldn't expect the average soldier to walk with this monster constantly and I would imagine in most cases, a temple piece, although there are ceremonial examples only, a temple piece of this era should in fact be a weapon as well, but that's just my guess.

I think it is a weapon, although you comment on the dragon pointing elsewhere? I can see good forged quality in the steel and as there is no disk guard, the dragon does in fact appear to be that guard and the dragon from my eyes appears to be that of almost a basket hilt.

I have seen the bouncy eyes that you refer to also, I can't put my hands on where I saw them but if you can find a link, please do share it. I too saw the butt spike lacking but it didn't bother me at all. I may yet be pleasently surprised but a small simple one?

I'll be sure to add a lot more images in a week or two when it arrives, until then, I'd love to see more images from anywhere to compare with this if there are any?

Ivory Lion with mark is below

thanks

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Gavin,

Congratulations on the acquisition of a wonderful piece.

Cheers
Chris

[josh stout]

I doubt that you will find any overt reign marks but you never know.

Please post as much about this piece as you can. There is very little out there, and what I have seen is not usually as good as this one, so I just don't have much to go on.

The presence of pattern welding is the dividing line for me between weapons and display, but of course a high end temple piece could well be pattern welded, and some of the higher end "weapons" used in official military displays are not pattern welded.

Another possibility is that many martial arts schools have weapons racks for display and practice that often have over size examples.

I am still betting it is a nice example of a weapon from the imperial regulations, but we shall see.
Josh

[Mark]

I hate to be a wet blanket (and I hope I am wrong), but what is with the wobbly surface of the blade? It looks almost as if it is made of thinner metal and hollow, and suffered a few dings. The seven plugs or rivets through the blade add to my concern, as they appear to be more substantial and protruding than the typical "seven stars" inserts. I would be surprised to see such a thing connected to that lovely dragon guard, but the more I look at the blade the more I wonder.

[VANDOO]

I SUSPECT THIS WAS USED FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES IT MAY HAVE BEEN CARRIED IN PROCESSIONS BUT WAS PROBABLY KEPT IN SOME TEMPLE OR SHRINE MOST OF THE TIME. IT MAY HAVE A BLADE THAT IS SUITABLE FOR A WEAPON BUT TOO LARGE TO BE PRACTICAL, THE FITTINGS ARE NOT SUITABLE AND WAY TO ORNATE FOR A WEAPON. I COULD SEE THIS BEING CARRIED OR HELD BY A GIANT GAURD WITH NO SHIRT AT THE DOOR TO THE QUEENS QUARTERS OR AT A TEMPLE GATE (I'VE SEEN TOO MANY MOVIES )
I CAN NOT SEE IT BEING USED IN WARFARE, I SUSPECT THE BALANCE IS BAD AND THE SHAFT TOO WEAK AND LARGE FOR A PRACTICAL POLE ARM.
ALL THAT BEING SAID I DO LIKE IT AND IT DOES APPEAR TO BE A GOOD WELL MADE ANTIQUE ITEM AND IT IS DEFINITELY ETHONOGRAPHIC CHINESE CONGRADULATIONS ON A GREAT FIND. I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING MORE ABOUT IT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Mark

I hate to be a wet blanket (and I hope I am wrong), but what is with the wobbly surface of the blade? It looks almost as if it is made of thinner metal and hollow, and suffered a few dings. The seven plugs or rivets through the blade add to my concern, as they appear to be more substantial and protruding than the typical "seven stars" inserts. I would be surprised to see such a thing connected to that lovely dragon guard, but the more I look at the blade the more I wonder.

Thanks Chris, Mark, Josh and Vandoo.

Mark, the wobbly surface? Hollow? Dings? I do hope you are wrong too. The spine looks very thick to me and I cannot see the issues you speak of, only a partial clean to parts of the steel.
I have seen so many different seven star configurations and I must say in my view, the usual plain brass inlay would look largly out of place and plain in my eyes and these stars seem to carry the more flamboyant theme that is consistant with the grand Qianlong Dynasty, more consistant with the flamboyant dragons head too.
I would be interested with regards to the seven star inlay to have comparison images made available to further inversigate, it just can't get here quick enough.

Josh I too don't think I'll see a reign mark but within the brass dragon or haft fittings, I may be surprised...
Royal or military displays do come to mind with this piece, I can visualise guards standing with their arms out stretched and these blades towering above them.

G'day Vandoo, thanks for coming in too. I too get caught in moments of HollyWood and old Kungfu movies when I see something like this.
I will tell more of it's possible practical nature when I get my hands on it, although it does look oversized, looking at the size of the haft, I do wonder if it better balanced than what first glances indicate and looking at the area where the tang is situated, it looks as though there could neary be a foot of steel inside that shaft so it may even be able to deliver a blow,not that I plan on knocking against anything...though I may just take in into the back yard and swing it wildly for a few minutes to get it out of my system.
I aggree that it is not a weapon of war and thanks for the congrats.

regards

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
While I have noted, these weapons are outside my usual field, I still share in the excitement while we await the arrival of your latest conquest!! I tried looking through what resources I have (including my treasured pile of Scott Rodell's catalogs!!) and found a little more on the history of these polearms.
As already discussed, the form of blade on this is termed 'guan dao' which is for the Chinese general Guan of Three kingdoms period (220-265 AD) with whom it is typically associated. It appears that there is some dispute on the first examples like this, and some insist they are first seen in the 7th century.

These are compared to the European fauchard, and in similar manner, some of the blades have been mounted in sword hilts, as in one example seen in one of the Rodell catalog's from 1995 (#1014/10). This example has a thinner blade, though of essentially the same basic profile.
Historically the Gen. Guan weapon was described as the 'green dragon crescent blade', and interestingly in more modern times, the Chinese infantry of the Han Green Standard Army used these weapons in Qing period.
The apparant lack of standardization suggested popularity in civilian martial arts, and it is noted that these were well known in Shaolin and Wudangquan schools of martial arts. (Wudang= refers to these mountains in Hubei province, quan= boxing or fist).

The extremely elaborate base holding the blade, of course suggests the ceremonial probability of this piece, as well as some of the observations on the blade features pending arrival, however, many votive or processional items from temples are very desirable (as this obviously!). If this proves to be such such an item out of a Shaolin temple and of Qianlong period it would be fantastic!!! ....doesnt need to be a 'combat' weapon.......has anyone ever seen what those Tibetan phur'pa go for ??!!

All the best,
Jim

[Mark]

These were the areas that concerned me. In the upper two areas, the surface looks sort of buckled (dented in and pulled out), more than I would expect on such a thick blade. In the lower area, again, the right edge seems to bulge up while to the left it is dented in. It could be the play of the light, but it looks more like a cumpling effect on a thin-walled hollow object than bends and grind marks on a solid one. It could be that the upper part of the blade thins considerably toward the edge, and it got badly bent, then bent back, creating the rippled effect.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for the data there Jim, great points of reference as always.
I wish I could obtain old reference catalogue such as these that you refer to. Do you have a scanner in that ole bus of yours? I'd love to see the image posted with the text provided

I do wonder if some of our more learned Chinese experts could step forth and comment too, Phillip, Yu-Ming Chang, Rsword, Dennee???

Thanks for the graphics too Mark, I have at many times wished I could add things like that to photos to better present detail.
It is quite possible that there is a warp at the edge of the blade where the arrows point but the other area is still speculation for me until I get it home.
If you look at the 4th pic I provided of the full length, that issue does not seem to be present, only when the camera moves closer that it appears as such. The 4th Pic is taken a distance and elevation to capture the full length, whilst the others are closer and the flash is more noticable.
I do wonder if that area has something to do with the glass in the cabinet with the lights shinning on the bowls/dishes within the cabinet causig a cresent of light on the blade that is due to a camera flash and these elements mentioned??
I will be sure to provide detailed images whatever the outcome.
Can anyone within the forum provide images of the type of inlay that is found on the blade for further dating and comparisions? Images for comparison of the simulated bamboo at the dragons neck may also be helpful.


thanks in advance

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Just a quick update whilst I wait unsettled in my seat for this to arrive.
It has been a long night of international phone calls.
I have spoken further with my very helpful collector friend in Hong Kong via the net and when speaking of dates for this weapon I have discovered a communication breakdown that so often happens with language differences.
The Ching Long he referred to is not Qianlong but the Ching Dynasty. Dating from what was spoken of and what reference I have here would put this in my eyes at around 1850. I beleive he is looking for images from his end of the world to help too, I am very interested in viewing them should they surface.
I have attached a couple of pics of, although oldish, a far more modern martial arts set of pole arms to show where the dragon theme continued on. There is also a blade shape present in the photos that I remember seeing someone ask about a while back, it was at the time though of a Chinese but dismissed by another, if that thread is found, I think this may point to Chinese for it too.
I am also happy to say after speaking with both the auction house and the carrier there are no blade issues to be found upon this piece, sadly due to the size of the object it is still another week away

regards

Gav

[Valjhun]

Tatarattatataaaaa

I've just found the guy who possesed it... Who is he?

[Klas Larsson]

That is general Kuan (Gwan) mention above, also known as Kuan Ti (Guan Di) the God of War, and a protector deity, for homes, temples and other buildings. Can sometimes be seen sittings on a horse on roof tiles. Saw some real nice ones from Tang era at an exhibition a wile a go, see if I can find pictures. He is also a character in the old novels "Three Kingdoms", and a historical character.

About the hefty size, Peter Dekker wrote something on Yan Yue dao in the Qing military, and told they had very heavy ones for martial practice, quoting the military regulations books of Qing. Can not recall where he wrote this, maybe his website? Its at http://www.mandarinmansion.com/

Not saying this is one of those military examples, but it could still be a practice dao, as some of you already pointed out, its way to heavy for fighting, but can well build strength and develop correct body usage in martial practice.

And congratulations, this is really something extra!

[Klas Larsson]

Here are some really nice pictures of Yan Yue Dao, on Tomas Chens always usefull website http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo4.html

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for the kind words and for supplying the link Klas, I too was recently looking at it and they are all choice examples shown. One pictured has a similar blade configuration, the third last one it is, I particuarly like the suspended tassle shown.
Thanks too for coming in and covering off General Kwan, it was an interesting representation of him Valjhun bought forth.
Thanks for keeping this thread going with your interest too guys. Josh, if anything further has come to light I would love to hear it.
I should have new images in a fews days as I have been tracking the package and I should receive it Monday Aussie time.

regards

Gav

[Gonzalo G]

!Congratulations, Gav! A VERY interesting piece. Do you think it´s an offering item to the temple? Or a weapon designed to be used, no matter it was offered? There were some heavy fighting weapons on the chinese arsenal. Usually associated with the presence of heavy armour.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gavin Nugent]

G'day Gonzalo, thanks for popping in on this thread.

Without having the piece in my hand yet, I still believe it is a weapon of massive proportions but was used within a temple of some description, maybe for ceremony, maybe for protection... I have yet been unable to reveal this.

There was reference made by the packers and senders when I spoke to them, that the shaft, although it appears to be timber to me when looking through the dragons mouth, they indicated that it is as hard as iron and almost had a metallic ring to it when struck, this alone may point further to a more practical nature. What I can see within the blades structure points to me that it is a weapon and the design of the dragon and the inlay on the blade all point to the makeup of something that would be used and found within a temple, one that could well be called upon within it's home to serve as devastating weapon.
Again, only my thoughts. I know there are some out there who would be considered much more versed in the subject and I look forward to hearing from them if they stumble across this thread. Given the time, I will make contact via websites to experts to see if the mystery can be revealed.
What are your views on this one Gonzalo?
I continue to welcome all comments from anyone interested, speculation or otherwise can all help unravel a mystery.

thanks

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Not the same but worth a look, sounds like it is in German. Fast forward to 3 minutes and again to 4minutes 30 secs for a few different versions in this Doco.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=A5EwWL...eature=related

I guess no one was looking as I forgot the link

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

What a beauty!!

I will post photos if it ever stops raining here. It has a nice forged blade with distal taper and the iron butt spike is still in place.
I am leaning more to ceremonial as it is massive and I just don't know how something so large could be moved swiftly enough to defend and be offensive too, no matter how many youtube videos I watch!!! This one just seems bigger and heavier.

Watch this space, more to come.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Josh, this maybe interesting for you, some of the data that you want.

The blade is 32 inches long from the forward most cutting edge to the dragons mouth, it is 10 inches tall at the first curve on the forefront and a little under this at the large middle curve/hook on the top of the blade. The blade still has a keen cutting edge from the Dragon's mouth to the end tip.

The spine is 3/8 of an inch wide at the dragons mouth and the blade is 4 inches tall at this point. It narrows slightly along the spine and then broadens again towards the first rear curve and from there distally tapers towards the tip and all the cutting edges. The curved valleys along the spine from this middle point to the tip have beveled unsharpened edges.

There are signs within this hand forged blade of delamination in places and a small forging crack has appeared in the forward most top curve. The large middle top hook is nicely shaped to both sides of the blade to appear more cloud like, it enhances the bronze/brass inlay that is present at this point by adding a round visual feel to it.

The inlay goes all the way from the dragons throat to the forward most "star" along the top edge of the blade and is of a very interesting design that the photos will reveal.

The Brass star inlay is all present except on one side were one piece of brass is lost. They protrude both sides about an 8th of an inch. They are all iron centred and brass based and both the brass and iron are tight and dome finished which does give a nice effect.

I will get some images of the blade posted to support this description and then move on down the piece with more descriptions and images.

If there is anything in particular that I have not covered please ask.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Images;

[josh stout]

Wow, now I even like this better. The details are overwhelming. I have never seen stars made like that, but I have seen several jian blades with variations including multiple metals and changes in alloys. Are all the stars exactly alike, or are they divided into groups of four and three? What is the total weight? Where is the balance point?

I am strongly leaning toward a martial arts training weapon/display item.

Temple display items tend to be purely for display with thin blades that allow them to be carried easily for processions. Martial arts schools, on the other hand, would have the combined requirements of weapons to look nice on the wall, and something that would hold together in practice. My only experience with such things is with two jian I have held which were made exactly like jian to be used as weapons, with hard steel edges and typical pattern welding, but with double the weight. Jian like that are extremely rare. One was in the personal collection of Scott Rodell (you can see it in his book on swordsmanship), and the other was passed down within my school of kungfu.

I think you have found the equivalent in a pole arm, making it even more unusual

One characteristic of the jian is that while they are quite heavy, they are still well balanced. Another thing to look for is if the head has a long enough tang and other attachment devices to allow it to be swung safely.

Don't try and swing it with any energy though. I managed to snap the pole on (a regular) one when training with it. Old wood just doesn't have the strength to withstand torque and vibrations with that kind of leverage.

Thanks for the pictures.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for your Reply Josh, I have been looking forward to it.

I will answer more of your questions with the next few postings but pertaining to the blade, all stars are exactly the same. I will note here too, that the brass inlay may well be blended with other alloys as when the light reflects on these inlays, they shine in different colours, the look I am trying to describe reminds me of the glimmer one would see when looking at an oil slick and water.

Tonight I will pass on dimensions and characteristics of the Dragon and fittings with him. Given the time I will then post of the haft, Butt spike, balance and ease of applications.

From tip of the Dragons mouth to the very back of the Dragons neck is 14 & 1/2 inches. From the tip of his lip to the tip of his flowing mane, it measures 8 &1/2 inches. The tip of his nose to the bottom of his mane, 6 &1/2 inches. Looking down on top the widest point between the tips of his mane is 5 inches. The entire Dragon's head is a seperate casting to the simulated bamboo neck, the head actually slips tightly over this brass neck fitting.
This fitting on the haft is 2 &1/2 inches in diametre and secured through the tang with two iron pins about 1/4 inch thick.

The detail found on the Dragon is very nice, large scales to his head and small scales his underside. The entire open mouth has been filled with a black putty that is now dry and cracking away in places. It is my beleif that filled to keep moisture out of this area, should it ever be found standing upright in the elements. He sports some lovely large fangs and teeth. it too is my opinion that the eyes may well have protruded from their sockets as I can see what appears to be a broken shaft within one socket or maybe it is an over active mind???

Please find images attached shortly.

Again any questions that arise, please ask as I may have missed some aspects that can be seen by others.

Thanks

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Images;

[Tim Simmons]

What a relief!!! worth all the nervous wait not to mention the total costs? It may have had stone or glass set in the eyes.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

What a relief!!! worth all the nervous wait not to mention the total costs? It may have had stone or glass set in the eyes.

Hi Tim,

It has been worth every restless anxious night.

It is quite possible that it could have been gem set eyes once upon a time. If I ever find a more complete example it will be the first thing I will look at.

Thank god for Fedex, otherwise I don't think I could have shipped it all the way to Australia. The delivery driver asked if it was something out of the Harry Potter movies

Any Jewellers amongst us that may have some insight into the eye settings, is it possible looking at them?

Gav