Bali Keris #3

S.Workman · 10th June 2014, 10:55 PM

Hello everyone, I thought I would try to elicit some responses on yet another keris, purportedly from Bali. Its not very big, the blade is perhaps 11" long. The gajah, if that is the right term, is very fine, about the thickness of a dime if even. I am of two minds, one part of me wants to renew the pamor and clean up the one one section of pitting. The other wants to let well enough alone.
I don't know anything about this keris except where it is said to be from, what the pamor is, what social position it represents, or anything. So, any hypotheses, theories, or conjectures are appreciated.
One more thing, I think its from an old European shop or collection, it has some kind of glued on tag but it was written in pencil, long ago mostly worn off.
What do you all think?

Rick · 11th June 2014, 12:14 AM

Can you show a shot looking at the fit of blade to scabbard ?

S.Workman · 11th June 2014, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Can you show a shot looking at the fit of blade to scabbard ?

Sure thing, here you go. One other thing, the first pic shows the point where the wrapped peksi enters the hulu. It seems to be wrapped with a whole lot of some very fine material, but while it is very firmly set, it is a touch cocked in overall relation to the rest of the assemblage. I can't tell what the wood of the hulu is, it looks for all the world like sycamore, although of course thats really unlikely.
The fit in the scabbard is very good, no rattle at all. One last thing, the ganjah is loose on the tang. Not bad, but its a bit annoying.
You can see in that first picture how loose and cocked off the ganjah is, but the fineness of the akut, is it? has me hesitant. This hulu is really on there, and I am sure I could fix the ganjah, but….

Rick · 11th June 2014, 02:34 AM

The pamor almost looks drawn on the blade; but I know it is not .

The blade has a nice polish .
Bali or Lombok .

David · 11th June 2014, 03:32 AM

Respectable old Bali keris. The blade is a little unusually short for Bali blades, but not unprecedented. I have one that only just a bit longer that yours. The sheath looks to be a true pelet patterned wood. Sometimes they fake this with markers or dye. Pamor names aren't my strong point, but yours looks to be a fairly common kulit semangka (melon pattern).

S.Workman · 11th June 2014, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Respectable old Bali keris. The blade is a little unusually short for Bali blades, but not unprecedented. I have one that only just a bit longer that yours. The sheath looks to be a true pelet patterned wood. Sometimes they fake this with markers or dye. Pamor names aren't my strong point, but yours looks to be a fairly common kulit semangka (melon pattern).

Haha, it's real patterned wood! There are a couple of cracks that allow you to observe the surface. It's a nice keris, I think it needs work but I am going to wait a while.

Rick · 11th June 2014, 04:41 AM

^^^
First, do no harm .
It does not appear 'broke' to me .

Gustav · 11th June 2014, 08:41 PM

It has the original polish and more then remains of an original Bali staining, about/or more then 100 years old. This is bekoming quite rare now, I wouldn't touch it as a whole blade.

My oppinion is, information given by Mr. Farrow is reliable.

S.Workman · 11th June 2014, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It has the original polish and more then remains of an original Bali staining, about/or more then 100 years old. This is bekoming quite rare now, I wouldn't touch it as a whole blade.

My oppinion is, information given by Mr. Farrow is reliable.

Haha, you know where it came from?!?
I am sure it's reliable, I was just looking for more information,
such as the name of the pamor, something I have zero knowledge of. I too
think it's best left alone, but I really don't like the skewed ganjah much, since
it catches on the scabbard unless handled really carefully.
All that aside, Erik is a very honest guy in my opinion, but provenance on
keris is a challenge and I don't think it's possible to have too much information.
Especially when it comes to keris that have an affinity in form from one island or another, or if you know only that you like keris, but don't know much about them (like me!). I used the word purported, which implies the possibility that the statement is possibly false, perhaps deliberately, instead of reportedly, which has a much less suspicious implication. That was a clumsy word choice and I am sorry to imply that I doubt Erik at all.

Jean · 12th June 2014, 10:32 AM

My personal thoughts about this kris, which may not be approved by all members and I apologize in advance:
. This is an old Bali/ Lombok blade indeed. Unfortunately somebody seems to have sanded the rusty areas, which have caused the colour to fade and the pamor to get blurred. If this blade was mine, I would take the risk to send it to a reliable craftsman for complete cleaning and warangan. From experience the polish would not be affected.
. From the pics the pamor pattern seems to be Ngulit Semangka as said by David.
. The greneng is rustic and the ganja is worn-out, I would remove it and carefully clean the face in contact with the blade as well as the bottom face of the blade and glue the ganja in place with Superglue to avoid skewing.
. The fitting of the blade into the sheath slot is acceptable but the 2 pieces are not originally matching IMO.
. I would add a ring (uwer) on the peksi between the hilt and the blade.
Regards

S.Workman · 12th June 2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

My personal thoughts about this kris, which may not be approved by all members and I apologize in advance:
. This is an old Bali/ Lombok blade indeed. Unfortunately somebody seems to have sanded the rusty areas, which have caused the colour to fade and the pamor to get blurred. If this blade was mine, I would take the risk to send it to a reliable craftsman for complete cleaning and warangan. From experience the polish would not be affected.
. From the pics the pamor pattern seems to be Ngulit Semangka as said by David.
. The greneng is rustic and the ganja is worn-out, I would remove it and carefully clean the face in contact with the blade as well as the bottom face of the blade and glue the ganja in place with Superglue to avoid skewing.
. The fitting of the blade into the sheath slot is acceptable but the 2 pieces are not originally matching IMO.
. I would add a ring (uwer) on the peksi between the hilt and the blade.
Regards

Thanks for writing Jean. While I am no expert, I think that the fading along the edges of the blade, if thats what you are referring to, were caused by the slight "catch" as the blade enters the sheath. It is a bit tight, which may possibly be more evidence that it's not original? Or that the wood has shrunk a bit, who knows. As far as sending the piece away, I don't think that I can afford it. Shipping alone with reliable tracking is in the hundreds of dollars range. I won't use USPS for this because their tracking isn't really, and UPS is very pricey.
My other two keris I worked on myself, and I guess I did OK, but I am not a professional restorer of anything. In the case of those two, it was do or die, since both were actually in trouble. I may just sit this one out.

Gustav · 12th June 2014, 12:48 PM

Dear Mr. Workman,

perhaps this methode might be of interest in this case:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18176

(especially #10),

I surely would ask Alan for his oppinion on it.

S.Workman · 12th June 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Mr. Workman,

perhaps this methode might be of interest in this case:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18176

(especially #10),

I surely would ask Alan for his oppinion on it.

Thanks for the input Gustav. I have used the Alan method before with great results, but that was on a keris that had been neglected for a long while and had lots of rust. As the rust came off, so did the patina, so I had to start from scratch. Again, while no expert I was pretty happy with the results. It's posted on here someplace. This keris I don't think is in too much trouble. At least, it doesn't have active rust. Perhaps like a physician I should first do no harm, as advised above.
Alan does certainly have lots of sage advice! I couldn't have fixed up my other two keris without him (and the other helpful folks on this forum).

Gustav · 12th June 2014, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

Thanks for the input Gustav. I have used the Alan method before with great results, but that was on a keris that had been neglected for a long while and had lots of rust. As the rust came off, so did the patina, so I had to start from scratch. Again, while no expert I was pretty happy with the results. It's posted on here someplace. This keris I don't think is in too much trouble. At least, it doesn't have active rust. Perhaps like a physician I should first do no harm, as advised above.
Alan does certainly have lots of sage advice! I couldn't have fixed up my other two keris without him (and the other helpful folks on this forum).

I ment use of Cold Blue at places, preserving the old stain.

S.Workman · 12th June 2014, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

I ment use of Cold Blue at places, preserving the old stain.

Oh, I thought Alan said that would permanently stain the nickel portion of the pamor. Use with care I think is the motto. I have some that I use for rebluing guns, it will even blue a nail or a finger ring. I would use it on a dinged-up shotgun, not on a keris, but that's just me.

GIO · 12th June 2014, 05:27 PM

When I clean and etch a blade I always remove the ganja to eliminate the rust. I then cover all parts in contact between blade and tang with a rust converter to avoid future problems.
In the self-explicating drawing you can find the method I use to remove and re-fit the ganja. If possible I avoid using glue of any sort.
Be very careful and delicate to avoid any damage, especially when you place the blade in the vice: it must be very firm, so place two pieces of wood on both sides of the blade and close with strength the vice.
Good work !

S.Workman · 12th June 2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

When I clean and etch a blade I always remove the ganja to eliminate the rust. I then cover all parts in contact between blade and tang with a rust converter to avoid future problems.
In the self-explicating drawing you can find the method I use to remove and re-fit the ganja. If possible I avoid using glue of any sort.
Be very careful and delicate to avoid any damage, especially when you place the blade in the vice: it must be very firm, so place two pieces of wood on both sides of the blade and close with strength the vice.
Good work !

That's a great drawing. This is exactly the method I used on one of my other keris. I had to make a new wedge out of a nail.

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2014, 01:04 AM

A couple of little comments.

In Jawa two part epoxy adhesives such as Araldite have been used in the restoration of keris since these adhesives became available.

The usual method of use is to mix the adhesive with iron filings and to coat the base of the blade and the bottom of the gonjo, fit together, wipe the excess clean and then fix.

The reason for using the adhesive is to prevent, or at least delay, the future attack of corrosion between the gonjo and the wilah.

Javanese dealers are very, very clever with the use of this Araldite+iron filings and in my experience most will not hesitate to fill holes in a blade, such as the erosion holes in sogokan, with this mix. You may never know that you have a blade with this sort of repair, or you may find out many years after purchase. If the job has been well done it is extremely unlikely that you will detect the repair without a microscopic inspection.

In fitting a gonjo I have never seen an original gonjo fitted with multiple pins, as GIO has shown. In my experience, the use of more than a single pin complicates the job and makes precise alignment difficult. The usual Javanese method is a single pin on the buntut urang side of the pesi.

The pin used to fit a gonjo should be cut square and tapered and fitted into a tapered square cut hole. You cut the square hole to accept the pin with a jeweller's file, you make the pin by using a jeweller's file.

Another way of fitting a gonjo is to make the hole in the gonjo a very neat, press fit to the tang, then tighten the gonjo around the tang with a hammer and punch.

Aluminium jaws for a vice are more effective and long lasting than wood, but for a quick fix, folded newspaper works well.

S.Workman · 13th June 2014, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fitting a gonjo I have never seen an original gonjo fitted with multiple pins, as GIO has shown. In my experience, the use of more than a single pin complicates the job and makes precise alignment difficult. The usual Javanese method is a single pin on the buntut urang side of the pesi.

Eeeeek. I didn't notice that the drawing indicates multiple pins. Thats what I get for poking around on the internets at work. Alan, do you know anything about this type of keris?
I don't think I am going to do a thing with this keris, if only because it is an original finish, the keris is not in danger, and it won't damage it's own scabbard if handled with care. It is not as if I need it battle ready to fend off pirates or something.

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2014, 04:12 AM

Know anything?

No, not really.

In sociological terms, little keris = little (as in low ranking) man. Very ordinary sort of keris, I've seen many like this over the years. I'd agree with ngulit semangko as pamor. Perhaps it should be repolished and restained, but in truth, it is probably not worth the effort --- many years ago when I was inexperienced with keris I would have put the time in on it, simply for the joy of learning, but these days I wouldn't bother. Its probably best left just as it is.

GIO · 14th June 2014, 04:16 PM

No, I do not use pins to secure the ganja. I get a small deformation on the ganja around the peksi, so that the ganja is firmly fixed.
The same principle is applied in Japan to adapt tsubas on the blades.
I am sure Alan has never seen such a system: it is my personal clumsy work to avoid the use of glue. In my defence I would emphasize that the result is invisible (also because hidden by the mendak) and reversible.
When a pin is present, I obviously use it. If it is worn out, I make a new one.

A. G. Maisey · 14th June 2014, 10:13 PM

Please accept my apologies Giovanni.

I misinterpreted your sketch:- I thought that the black spots surrounding the tang were holes to accept pins.

Yes, tightening a gonjo by working around the tang and punching the top of the gonjo is a valid way to fit a gonjo, I've often found this method used on Bugis and Peninsula keris, but I cannot recall ever having seen it used on a Javanese or Balinese keris.

GIO · 16th June 2014, 06:43 PM

Alan, you absolutely must not excuse yourself.
In fact I am rather flattered becoming aware that the procedure I follow to fix a ganja is being utilized in Indonesia too. At the end my work is not so clumsy and rough !

A. G. Maisey · 17th June 2014, 01:00 AM

Yes, I believe your finished job would be neat.

However, this type of fit can only be used when the hole in the gonjo is a neat fit to the tang.

12th June 2014, 05:27 PM	#16
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	When I clean and etch a blade I always remove the ganja to eliminate the rust. I then cover all parts in contact between blade and tang with a rust converter to avoid future problems. In the self-explicating drawing you can find the method I use to remove and re-fit the ganja. If possible I avoid using glue of any sort. Be very careful and delicate to avoid any damage, especially when you place the blade in the vice: it must be very firm, so place two pieces of wood on both sides of the blade and close with strength the vice. Good work ! Attached Images

10th June 2014, 10:55 PM	#1
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Bali Keris #3 Hello everyone, I thought I would try to elicit some responses on yet another keris, purportedly from Bali. Its not very big, the blade is perhaps 11" long. The gajah, if that is the right term, is very fine, about the thickness of a dime if even. I am of two minds, one part of me wants to renew the pamor and clean up the one one section of pitting. The other wants to let well enough alone. I don't know anything about this keris except where it is said to be from, what the pamor is, what social position it represents, or anything. So, any hypotheses, theories, or conjectures are appreciated. One more thing, I think its from an old European shop or collection, it has some kind of glued on tag but it was written in pencil, long ago mostly worn off. What do you all think? Attached Images

11th June 2014, 12:14 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Can you show a shot looking at the fit of blade to scabbard ?

11th June 2014, 02:34 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The pamor almost looks drawn on the blade; but I know it is not . The blade has a nice polish . Bali or Lombok .

11th June 2014, 03:32 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Respectable old Bali keris. The blade is a little unusually short for Bali blades, but not unprecedented. I have one that only just a bit longer that yours. The sheath looks to be a true pelet patterned wood. Sometimes they fake this with markers or dye. Pamor names aren't my strong point, but yours looks to be a fairly common kulit semangka (melon pattern).

11th June 2014, 04:41 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	^^^ First, do no harm . It does not appear 'broke' to me .

11th June 2014, 08:41 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	It has the original polish and more then remains of an original Bali staining, about/or more then 100 years old. This is bekoming quite rare now, I wouldn't touch it as a whole blade. My oppinion is, information given by Mr. Farrow is reliable.

12th June 2014, 10:32 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My personal thoughts about this kris, which may not be approved by all members and I apologize in advance: . This is an old Bali/ Lombok blade indeed. Unfortunately somebody seems to have sanded the rusty areas, which have caused the colour to fade and the pamor to get blurred. If this blade was mine, I would take the risk to send it to a reliable craftsman for complete cleaning and warangan. From experience the polish would not be affected. . From the pics the pamor pattern seems to be Ngulit Semangka as said by David. . The greneng is rustic and the ganja is worn-out, I would remove it and carefully clean the face in contact with the blade as well as the bottom face of the blade and glue the ganja in place with Superglue to avoid skewing. . The fitting of the blade into the sheath slot is acceptable but the 2 pieces are not originally matching IMO. . I would add a ring (uwer) on the peksi between the hilt and the blade. Regards

12th June 2014, 12:48 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Dear Mr. Workman, perhaps this methode might be of interest in this case: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18176 (especially #10), I surely would ask Alan for his oppinion on it.

13th June 2014, 01:04 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	A couple of little comments. In Jawa two part epoxy adhesives such as Araldite have been used in the restoration of keris since these adhesives became available. The usual method of use is to mix the adhesive with iron filings and to coat the base of the blade and the bottom of the gonjo, fit together, wipe the excess clean and then fix. The reason for using the adhesive is to prevent, or at least delay, the future attack of corrosion between the gonjo and the wilah. Javanese dealers are very, very clever with the use of this Araldite+iron filings and in my experience most will not hesitate to fill holes in a blade, such as the erosion holes in sogokan, with this mix. You may never know that you have a blade with this sort of repair, or you may find out many years after purchase. If the job has been well done it is extremely unlikely that you will detect the repair without a microscopic inspection. In fitting a gonjo I have never seen an original gonjo fitted with multiple pins, as GIO has shown. In my experience, the use of more than a single pin complicates the job and makes precise alignment difficult. The usual Javanese method is a single pin on the buntut urang side of the pesi. The pin used to fit a gonjo should be cut square and tapered and fitted into a tapered square cut hole. You cut the square hole to accept the pin with a jeweller's file, you make the pin by using a jeweller's file. Another way of fitting a gonjo is to make the hole in the gonjo a very neat, press fit to the tang, then tighten the gonjo around the tang with a hammer and punch. Aluminium jaws for a vice are more effective and long lasting than wood, but for a quick fix, folded newspaper works well.

13th June 2014, 04:12 AM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Know anything? No, not really. In sociological terms, little keris = little (as in low ranking) man. Very ordinary sort of keris, I've seen many like this over the years. I'd agree with ngulit semangko as pamor. Perhaps it should be repolished and restained, but in truth, it is probably not worth the effort --- many years ago when I was inexperienced with keris I would have put the time in on it, simply for the joy of learning, but these days I wouldn't bother. Its probably best left just as it is.

14th June 2014, 04:16 PM	#21
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	No, I do not use pins to secure the ganja. I get a small deformation on the ganja around the peksi, so that the ganja is firmly fixed. The same principle is applied in Japan to adapt tsubas on the blades. I am sure Alan has never seen such a system: it is my personal clumsy work to avoid the use of glue. In my defence I would emphasize that the result is invisible (also because hidden by the mendak) and reversible. When a pin is present, I obviously use it. If it is worn out, I make a new one.

14th June 2014, 10:13 PM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Please accept my apologies Giovanni. I misinterpreted your sketch:- I thought that the black spots surrounding the tang were holes to accept pins. Yes, tightening a gonjo by working around the tang and punching the top of the gonjo is a valid way to fit a gonjo, I've often found this method used on Bugis and Peninsula keris, but I cannot recall ever having seen it used on a Javanese or Balinese keris.

16th June 2014, 06:43 PM	#23
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Alan, you absolutely must not excuse yourself. In fact I am rather flattered becoming aware that the procedure I follow to fix a ganja is being utilized in Indonesia too. At the end my work is not so clumsy and rough !

17th June 2014, 01:00 AM	#24
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yes, I believe your finished job would be neat. However, this type of fit can only be used when the hole in the gonjo is a neat fit to the tang.