Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested

Valjhun · 16th July 2006, 06:32 PM

Hi!

Can anybody translate that inscription? Thanks!

Valjhun · 17th July 2006, 08:29 PM

S.Al-Anizi??

Thank you!

Matej

S.Al-Anizi · 17th July 2006, 09:17 PM

Sorry Valjhun, I totally forgot about this thread.

Sorry pal, cannot read this script, seems more like urdu or one of the many afghan languages that use the arabic script.

Sorry for taking alot of time to get back to you.

Valjhun · 20th July 2006, 06:54 PM

Thank you verry much S.Al-Anizi.

Afghan? I find it very strange indeed. It is of a typical greek lower quality manufacture, at least the fittings, the blade nicest quality and could be earlier. I'm attaching the other pictures. There is something like a makers mark also.

Is there someone who can read it?

erlikhan · 20th July 2006, 11:05 PM

hi. I am almost sure the scabbard mountings are new,and have been remounted to this scabbard although they dont properly fit, as somebody has preferred to do so instead of leaving it empty. You can see it from the metal sew and the place of the original mountings. Plus -I think- the grip band is new too,which reminds me very much the style of somebody I know from Istanbul...

regards

S.Al-Anizi · 21st July 2006, 05:11 AM

Valjhun, the writing could also be Osmanli, or even Persian? (more likely than afghan

)

Valjhun · 21st July 2006, 11:01 AM

Erli, thoose fittings doesn't seem to be new, just poorly made greek work in the passage of time between 1880-1920 and they fit properly to the piece, only the upper "silver" part is loose, but it goews down to the leather border.

Zifir · 21st July 2006, 03:21 PM

The writing is not Ottoman Turkish. I don't think it's persian either. Perhaps someone squenced arabic letters one after another, or it's urdu or another langauge.

eftihis · 21st July 2006, 05:42 PM

Hi Matej,
I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

Valjhun · 21st July 2006, 06:42 PM

Well Eftihis,

I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that?

However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work?

eftihis · 23rd July 2006, 12:23 AM

First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis.

Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level.

The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones.
I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious.

But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself.
What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin.
Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia.

Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans.
Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty.
Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity.
THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

ariel · 23rd July 2006, 02:47 AM

I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory

" Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" .
I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended.
Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you.
As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli.
Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

Valjhun · 24th July 2006, 07:26 PM

Well said SenSei!

Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis.

As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece....

Zifir · 25th July 2006, 09:05 PM

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758

If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows.

When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance?

eftihis · 26th July 2006, 04:22 PM

Hallo Zifir,
I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century.
If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard.
When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 05:06 PM

Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure

, but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes.

Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west.

Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not?

Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you.
regards

Rick · 26th July 2006, 05:40 PM

The tip of my Yatagan scabbard .
Dragon or Fish ?

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 06:19 PM

I answer your question by the same question.. Dragon or fish??

-I think- dragon ,evolved to look a bit like fish by the effect of naval men among which yataghans were very popular and perhaps practical to use in narrow spaces on board. I dont know for sure,but I cant imagine any warriors who would like to have a stupid and harmless fish as the animal to represent themselves best

TVV · 26th July 2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The tip of my Yatagan scabbard .
Dragon or Fish ?

In Bulgaria it is called a dolphin, and so it may be neither a dragon, nor fish. However, this does not mean it represents a dolphin, and I have no idea what it was originally intended to be. I personally believe that a dragon would make most sense as a symbol, unless you want to believe an incredible theory, according to which it is a dolphin and was put only on naval yataghans. This type of chape appears to be too widely spread for this theory to be plausible.

Rick · 26th July 2006, 07:22 PM

There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

erlikhan · 26th July 2006, 07:29 PM

dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

Valjhun · 26th July 2006, 08:43 PM

The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena.

I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

Yannis · 26th July 2006, 08:59 PM

Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.

Zifir · 26th July 2006, 09:15 PM

I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value.
In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture.

But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious.

eftihis · 26th July 2006, 11:58 PM

Beliefs about the existance of dragons are universal!!
You can find myths about dragons from ancient Greek and Norse mythology up to China and pre-columbian america!
But what is important here to understand from which area the dragon head arrived in yataghan scabbards, is the style of its artistic representation.
The dragons that exist on the janisaries book and on early islamic swords remind the chinese esthetic representation of dragons, while the yataghans have an almost "smilling" dragon which in my opinion relates more with the "sea dragons" that we can see on european maps of 16th -17th century.

Valjhun · 27th July 2006, 08:35 AM

Sea dragons on medieval maps are commonly known as whales.

Romans did not use the dragon motif, they used a lot of animals as symbols of their legion stendards but no dragons, as far as I know.

erlikhan · 27th July 2006, 09:57 AM

I think Romans not using dragon is understandable.My suggestion; reptiles in South and East Ajia are bigger and more fearsome,so respected more,and effect people's imagination more than they are in Europe and Mediterennean region.

Radu Transylvanicus · 27th July 2006, 11:51 AM

I would have to agree with TVV, dolphin it is to me, and it has been inspired (if not made!) from the more grotesque European stylised animals of the Baroque Era and before. Italians the were champions of such portrays in arms and armour and they traded heavily with the Ottoman Empire and had a profund influence on arts. One can still see similar stuff on every fountain in artsy cities of Europe made before late 19th century.
And rather than being comprehended as a "totemic animal" dolphin was rather a sugestive maritime ornament. Taxonomy was practically inexistent then and knowledge was based more on fabulations and most large "fish" (cetaceans included) were all simply known as sea-monsters, especially outside Europe.
Here is an example of such representation: Boy with Dolphin, Dutch 18th century: http://chaudhary.thoughtbot.com/dev/...TAMP1130278229

Ian · 27th July 2006, 01:35 PM

Thanks Radu. Nice picture to make your point -- looks very similar in style to the ornamentation we are talking about here.

Ian.

erlikhan · 27th July 2006, 04:23 PM

I still oppose the dolphin idea,as all of those animals on scabbard tips have skin covered with flakes, some roughly chiselled and some very detailed. Dolphins are mammals,and have very smooth skin as you know.

16th July 2006, 06:32 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested Hi! Can anybody translate that inscription? Thanks! Attached Images

20th July 2006, 06:54 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you verry much S.Al-Anizi. Afghan? I find it very strange indeed. It is of a typical greek lower quality manufacture, at least the fittings, the blade nicest quality and could be earlier. I'm attaching the other pictures. There is something like a makers mark also. Is there someone who can read it? Attached Images

21st July 2006, 06:42 PM	#10
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well Eftihis, I'm a little bit suprised by such question from you. In lack of a quality book on yatagans I would say that mine statement is a simple deduction upon observing various yatagans from auction houses, ebay listnings and museums. Thoose pices I'm referring to, usually have blades of lower quality with typical engravings consisting of flowers, hearts with arrows, inscriptions in greek and dates from the late 19th century to 1930. Sometimes thoose pieces are reffered as "sailor's yataghan". The monster head on the is a good sign too. It was never been done in former yugoslavia territories such way. Not a epirus masterpiece certainly, but still greek workmaship, I guess. One thing is for sure, it is not a formey yugoslavia piece. You are a far greater expert when it comes to Greece, can you comment that? However, I'm not totaly excluding the statement from Erlikhan. Erli, can you post some pictures of your friends work? Last edited by Valjhun; 21st July 2006 at 07:29 PM.

24th July 2006, 07:26 PM	#13
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well said SenSei! Than you for your evaluations and precious info, Eftihis. As I said, not an Epirus masterpiece.... Last edited by Valjhun; 24th July 2006 at 09:02 PM.

25th July 2006, 09:05 PM	#14
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=758 If you look at the second picture from the bottom, these are the very same words(only excluding the last word) that your yatagan has. I still believe this is not turkish, but who knows. When I was looking at several different yatagans, a question occured to me that why some yatagan scabbards had a fish-head like bottoms and others don't? what was the significance? Last edited by Zifir; 25th July 2006 at 09:21 PM.

17th July 2006, 08:29 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	S.Al-Anizi?? Thank you! Matej

17th July 2006, 09:17 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Sorry Valjhun, I totally forgot about this thread. Sorry pal, cannot read this script, seems more like urdu or one of the many afghan languages that use the arabic script. Sorry for taking alot of time to get back to you.

20th July 2006, 11:05 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi. I am almost sure the scabbard mountings are new,and have been remounted to this scabbard although they dont properly fit, as somebody has preferred to do so instead of leaving it empty. You can see it from the metal sew and the place of the original mountings. Plus -I think- the grip band is new too,which reminds me very much the style of somebody I know from Istanbul... regards

21st July 2006, 05:11 AM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Valjhun, the writing could also be Osmanli, or even Persian? (more likely than afghan )

21st July 2006, 11:01 AM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Erli, thoose fittings doesn't seem to be new, just poorly made greek work in the passage of time between 1880-1920 and they fit properly to the piece, only the upper "silver" part is loose, but it goews down to the leather border.

21st July 2006, 03:21 PM	#8
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	The writing is not Ottoman Turkish. I don't think it's persian either. Perhaps someone squenced arabic letters one after another, or it's urdu or another langauge.

21st July 2006, 05:42 PM	#9
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi Matej, I find it interesting that you believe the fittings are "lower quality greek work between 1880-1920" I would like to know more if you can elaborate with more details, what are the characteristics that make you believe that?

23rd July 2006, 12:23 AM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	First let me say, that if Erlikhan has right and the mounts are new, then this is maybe the reason that the inscription doesnt make sence! The person that "made up" the sword could have added an inscription to give it more value. If it was made today, then he does not know the old ottoman script, and he does not expect anybody to read it either, so he just copied characters without any order, therefore we have no meaning! Just an hypothesis. Regarding "greek made" work i honestly cannot set a rule, that is why i am asking. In what is today Greece there have been distinctive styles of silverwork like the ones from Crete and Epirus, but these were of a particulary high level. The good blades were mostly imported, but you can find decent ones made in Greece, but never damascus ones. I agree with the decoration on blades you observe, and of course where there is a Greek inscription the origin is obvious. But for the fittings, why a low end work would be Greek? If we say that "low end" work is related with the society changes and industrialisation (modern times force artisans to work fast with less attention to detail),during the end of the 19th century and the beggining of 20th, then this is the case for all the Balkan countries and Turkey itself. What i want to say is that in old times there was great work in Greece and elsewhere, in new times bad work in Greece and elswhere, therefore is more a matter of time than origin. Also do not forget that during Ottoman times they wher no set borders so half of Epirus is in todays Albania and i better not speak about Macedonia. Regarding the dragon head on yataghans is something that puzzled me a lot, i think is an influence from baroque style that came from Europe and adopted by Ottomans. Being from Greece, does not make me expert on Greek items, do not forget that these where made before the time of my grandfather, and i see many examples that i cannot know if they were made localy or imported from somehere else or they are just war booty. Only on Cretan items i can speak with a higher ammount of certainity. THats why i am really interested on what you know, and its great if you can say that it was sure not made in Formers Yugoslav territories.

23rd July 2006, 02:47 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we are in the " eats shoots and leaves" territory " Lower quality Greek work" can be interpreted as " lower quality, ie Greek, work " or "lower quality work that happens to come from Greece" . I am sure Valjhun meant the latter (and that is how I red it): it has Greek motives but this particular specimen is not a museum masterpiece. No condescension toward Greek workmanship in general was intended. Would be a pity if a grammatical ambiguity caused bad feelings between the two of you. As to the inscription... I had a Yataghan with a bizarre inscription that nobody could read. Then somebody just read it as a crude script of Osmanli. Don't despair, somebody will help. I do not believe for a second this is a mumbo-jumbo.

26th July 2006, 04:22 PM	#15
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hallo Zifir, I think that the dragon/dolphin/snake/fish head (many interpretations) came to turkish art as a loan from european baroque,during the 18th century. If you see the first known bichaq daggers from Buchara in central asia, and all the turkish weapons captured during the siege of Vienna, none has a dragon finial on its scabbard. When the fashion for the dragon head came, maybe some areas liked it more, maybe others less. Also some artist would stay with the old design as always happens.

26th July 2006, 05:06 PM	#16
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Valjhun,that guy is not "my friend" for sure , but I know him. He makes pretty good silver reproductions to yataghans and kilijs,but all of which can be caught quite easily by a little bit experienced eyes. Eftihis, I will oppose your suggestion about the roots of dragon finial.I think it is a really interesting subject to discuss on and would like to hear more and more opinions. I don't know if Turkish creation or not,but i think to track its roots through east would be better than through west. Why?Because not only hand guard tips,but many things have been decorated with dragon finial in Iran since Seljuk times.For example I have a really old shiite Turkoman keshkul (religious dervish bag) from eastern Turkey and it has very detailed dragon heads. You can see it on huge Iran alems of 16th century (Istanbul Military museum has a beautiful example).Then in 18th and 19th centuries,these dragon heads "devolve" to rough shapes which symbolize dragon head using less art and labor, but still represents dragon head as the result.You can watch the same on hand guards, from detailed samples of Safevid period to simple forms of Kajar. As far as I know,it is used on Afhgan and some Indo-persian swords too,not? Meanwhile I have seen a bronze scabbard of a miniature size surmene bichaq with a little dragon head (the knife is lost),the seller swears which was found in an early Ottoman tumulus in Trakya along with some bracelets and necklaces of which I can date them to 15-16th c. myself and are said to be found together with that scabbard. If I remember to take my camera with me to that shop in my next visit,I will share picture of that interesting scabbard with you. regards

26th July 2006, 05:40 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The tip of my Yatagan scabbard . Dragon or Fish ? Attached Images

26th July 2006, 06:19 PM	#18
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I answer your question by the same question.. Dragon or fish?? -I think- dragon ,evolved to look a bit like fish by the effect of naval men among which yataghans were very popular and perhaps practical to use in narrow spaces on board. I dont know for sure,but I cant imagine any warriors who would like to have a stupid and harmless fish as the animal to represent themselves best

26th July 2006, 07:22 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	There is some slight resemblance to the ancient Roman "Dolphin" ; as for the 'Yat' it is likely Turkish/Balkan/Greek ; choose one .

26th July 2006, 07:29 PM	#21
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	dragon ok., fish ok ... but a dolphin??.Logically must not. It must be a reptile or fish,first of all because of the flakes on its skin (I hope correct word in English).Meanwhile, was dolphin used as a symbol in similar meanings on weapons in Roman empire?

26th July 2006, 08:43 PM	#22
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	The romans used a vast selection of animals, predominantly the eagle, lion, boar, wolf but interestingly, it seems that they ignored dragons. There were no dragons in roman culture I think, as far as I know. The european dragon is a medieval product to explain the unexplained natural phenomena. I belive it is a western influenced feature. The majority of 1750-1850 yataghans, believed to be balkan/greece bear such dragon/fish at the end of the scabbard.

26th July 2006, 08:59 PM	#23
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Dragon tips are a puzzle. I cannot say if they are Western or Eastern origin but I can add my 3 cents. (a) In good ones you can find rarely precious stones (or semi precious or glass) in the eyes. But most of them are lost and that is why you see these round empty eyes (b) It looks they were common in Aegean Sea, so they are more “naval” than the other yataghans. (c) There are some fine examples were dragon scales continue long up to the scabbard.

26th July 2006, 09:15 PM	#24
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I first thought these figures were fish heads and had something to do with marines. But after all these interesting responses I think dragon is also a possibility. Whatever its origin, east or west, there should be some mythical and religious meaning as well as its artistic value. In janissary insignias one can come across both figures (fish/dragon). These drawings from an early 18th century book and i think these insignias had been in use for some time when this book was first published. Sorry for the low quality of the picture. But you can still see the dragon head pommels of the swords on the top. Fish figures are more obvious. Attached Images

26th July 2006, 11:58 PM	#25
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Beliefs about the existance of dragons are universal!! You can find myths about dragons from ancient Greek and Norse mythology up to China and pre-columbian america! But what is important here to understand from which area the dragon head arrived in yataghan scabbards, is the style of its artistic representation. The dragons that exist on the janisaries book and on early islamic swords remind the chinese esthetic representation of dragons, while the yataghans have an almost "smilling" dragon which in my opinion relates more with the "sea dragons" that we can see on european maps of 16th -17th century.

27th July 2006, 08:35 AM	#26
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Sea dragons on medieval maps are commonly known as whales. Romans did not use the dragon motif, they used a lot of animals as symbols of their legion stendards but no dragons, as far as I know.

27th July 2006, 09:57 AM	#27
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I think Romans not using dragon is understandable.My suggestion; reptiles in South and East Ajia are bigger and more fearsome,so respected more,and effect people's imagination more than they are in Europe and Mediterennean region.

27th July 2006, 11:51 AM	#28
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I would have to agree with TVV, dolphin it is to me, and it has been inspired (if not made!) from the more grotesque European stylised animals of the Baroque Era and before. Italians the were champions of such portrays in arms and armour and they traded heavily with the Ottoman Empire and had a profund influence on arts. One can still see similar stuff on every fountain in artsy cities of Europe made before late 19th century. And rather than being comprehended as a "totemic animal" dolphin was rather a sugestive maritime ornament. Taxonomy was practically inexistent then and knowledge was based more on fabulations and most large "fish" (cetaceans included) were all simply known as sea-monsters, especially outside Europe. Here is an example of such representation: Boy with Dolphin, Dutch 18th century: http://chaudhary.thoughtbot.com/dev/...TAMP1130278229

27th July 2006, 01:35 PM	#29
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Thanks Radu. Nice picture to make your point -- looks very similar in style to the ornamentation we are talking about here. Ian.

27th July 2006, 04:23 PM	#30
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I still oppose the dolphin idea,as all of those animals on scabbard tips have skin covered with flakes, some roughly chiselled and some very detailed. Dolphins are mammals,and have very smooth skin as you know.