Asian dagger for comment

kronckew · 1st March 2008, 07:47 AM

posted over on another forum while this one was down: (linky to other forum thread)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Found this one on ebay, billed as an early oriental/japanese dagger, possibly 18c. to me it has features of a kindjal as well as some tibetan like features, possibly north chinese or one of the areas of the old soviet republics in the area. will post better photos when it arrives. 16 in. LOA, 10 1/4 in. blade, appears single edged. horn grip, one rivet/domed washer missing

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

asian dagger arrived today, 17 in. LOA, 4.5 in. grip, 10.25 in. single edged blade 15/16 in. wide at guard, 1/4 in. thick at guard, distal taper to point.

grip is blonde horn one side, dark horn the other.the scales are held by a series of rivets and dome washers, as well as diamond shaped washers, pommel is steel, with a domed washer, peened bit at the end that may be the tang peened over or just another rivet. there is a substantial rivet about a half inch from the guard that i'd bet was thru a stub-tang which may be fairly short.

scabbard is steel over wood with a 3/4 in. gap between the upper and lower steel sections where wood is exposed. scabbard has numerous dings and a few worn holes but is substantially intact. scabbard throat has a brass decorated band around it as well as one roughly 3/4 in. below it. both have a steel strap over the brass. these are riveted to a steel piece standing perpendicular to the surface - it has a flat tail that extends down along the seam but is not fastened or braised to it, this piece has a hole for the 5/8 in. diameter steel ring that has a leather belt loop with sewn ends.

the seam in the sheel steel of the scabbard as well as on the dagger pommel itself is braised rather than soldered and the brass is evident in the seams and in the pictures.the steel oval guard is a bit loose, possibly from horn shrinkage.

now the best bit, the blade turns out to be laminated steel, in the hairpin fashion popular in the tibet/nepal region, you can see the layers in the photo. they are more evident on the port side of the blade but can be made out on the starboard side in good light as well.

the grip is not similar to those tibetan ones i've seen, so i do wonder where this comes from, any ideas?

consensus there, inc. steve f. & bill m. was that it was likely russian/tibetan/chinese/bhutanese due to the hairpin laminations but hilt was not typical of tibet/bhutan/china and had kindjal-like features, i'm reposting here to see if we can get some more info from the other experts...

dennee · 1st March 2008, 02:37 PM

I have photos of one very much like it, but as the item does not belong to me, I will not post it here. I'm guessing this comes from the northeast of Tibet. Likely Chinese and/or Mongolian influence. Some resemblance to trousse knives, and some resemblance to some eastern Tibetan swords with iron butt caps (one of my Chinese-influenced Tibetan swords has a similar diamond-shaped "washer" helping secure the peened tang over the pommel cap). I'll let you know if I find any historic photos showing such knives. I don't think it's Bhutanese; although it has a waisted hilt, it is substantially different in form to those of Bhutanese swords and daggers.

rand · 1st March 2008, 02:56 PM

Always nice to see these daggers with iron mounts. In my minds eye these are definately Tibetan related. Keep in mind Tibet used to be a much lager country- http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

In the maps you can see that Tibet was at one time larger than China, had part of Northern India, Bhutan and Nepal. Would imagine their area of influence would be approximately what the early border lines were.

Sometimes its difficult to say if something originated from one country because there can be such a blending of cultural influence. But until more is published on Bhutan, Nepal and Chinese arms and armor Tibet is my choice of labels for your dagger.

The clasp/attachment near the top of the hilt rings of Chinese or Mongolian design and taste.

rand

josh stout · 6th March 2008, 04:25 PM

I have been thinking about this knife a bit. The Tibetan, Bhutanese, Chinese, combination of influences is clear. The blade is more slim than most Tibetan examples with the look of Bhutanese style which also goes with the lozenge pommel. As pointed out though, the way it was put together does not indicate Bhutan, while it does strongly suggest a piece from the border of Tibet and China. The horn handle with decorated rivets resembles pieces from outlying villages in China with perhaps a minority influence. Also as pointed out, the ring attachment resembles Mongolian/Chinese knives. I have seen a Mongolian dagger with similar pattern welding that was also slim bladed in this fashion.

My best guess is that this comes from the Tibetan plateau region of Qinghai province north of Sichuan. This is partially based on triangulating the combination of influences. However, it is based even more on what I see on the market these days. Qinghai province is only recently opening up, and it has kept its Tibetan culture with very little outside influence until recently. In the last couple of years, many unusual Tibetan pieces have been showing up on the market in styles rarely or never seen previously. Riveted horn handles are quite common on these pieces while I think they are rare on more traditional Tibetan things. I have three horn handled Tibetan sabers in my collection with very good attribution that I am absolutely sure came from Qinghai. Actually, every example that I can think of where a Tibetan saber has a horn handle turns out to be from Qinghai. I am sure there are counter examples out there, but I have not seen them. Obviously with knives, horn handles are more common from all regions, but still I think there is enough evidence to make a good guess.

If this piece has been in a collection for many years then all bets are off, but if this new to the market as I suspect, then I think it is from Qinghai.
Josh

kronckew · 6th March 2008, 05:00 PM

hi josh, thanks for the added info. the more knowledge the better

it came from a general antique dealer without any provenance as to where it had been living before he got it. the only info is that he thought it was chinese possibly 18th century. i'll try emailing him to see if he has any info on where he got it that he can release....

kronckew · 7th March 2008, 04:06 PM

the dealer i got it from has told me he bought it in a bric-a-brac market stall, he's going back there next week & will ask them if they have any more info on where they got it. watch this space, but don't hold yer breath.

1st March 2008, 02:56 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tibetan Always nice to see these daggers with iron mounts. In my minds eye these are definately Tibetan related. Keep in mind Tibet used to be a much lager country- http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html In the maps you can see that Tibet was at one time larger than China, had part of Northern India, Bhutan and Nepal. Would imagine their area of influence would be approximately what the early border lines were. Sometimes its difficult to say if something originated from one country because there can be such a blending of cultural influence. But until more is published on Bhutan, Nepal and Chinese arms and armor Tibet is my choice of labels for your dagger. The clasp/attachment near the top of the hilt rings of Chinese or Mongolian design and taste. rand Last edited by rand; 1st March 2008 at 03:09 PM.

1st March 2008, 02:37 PM	#2
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I have photos of one very much like it, but as the item does not belong to me, I will not post it here. I'm guessing this comes from the northeast of Tibet. Likely Chinese and/or Mongolian influence. Some resemblance to trousse knives, and some resemblance to some eastern Tibetan swords with iron butt caps (one of my Chinese-influenced Tibetan swords has a similar diamond-shaped "washer" helping secure the peened tang over the pommel cap). I'll let you know if I find any historic photos showing such knives. I don't think it's Bhutanese; although it has a waisted hilt, it is substantially different in form to those of Bhutanese swords and daggers.

6th March 2008, 04:25 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I have been thinking about this knife a bit. The Tibetan, Bhutanese, Chinese, combination of influences is clear. The blade is more slim than most Tibetan examples with the look of Bhutanese style which also goes with the lozenge pommel. As pointed out though, the way it was put together does not indicate Bhutan, while it does strongly suggest a piece from the border of Tibet and China. The horn handle with decorated rivets resembles pieces from outlying villages in China with perhaps a minority influence. Also as pointed out, the ring attachment resembles Mongolian/Chinese knives. I have seen a Mongolian dagger with similar pattern welding that was also slim bladed in this fashion. My best guess is that this comes from the Tibetan plateau region of Qinghai province north of Sichuan. This is partially based on triangulating the combination of influences. However, it is based even more on what I see on the market these days. Qinghai province is only recently opening up, and it has kept its Tibetan culture with very little outside influence until recently. In the last couple of years, many unusual Tibetan pieces have been showing up on the market in styles rarely or never seen previously. Riveted horn handles are quite common on these pieces while I think they are rare on more traditional Tibetan things. I have three horn handled Tibetan sabers in my collection with very good attribution that I am absolutely sure came from Qinghai. Actually, every example that I can think of where a Tibetan saber has a horn handle turns out to be from Qinghai. I am sure there are counter examples out there, but I have not seen them. Obviously with knives, horn handles are more common from all regions, but still I think there is enough evidence to make a good guess. If this piece has been in a collection for many years then all bets are off, but if this new to the market as I suspect, then I think it is from Qinghai. Josh

6th March 2008, 05:00 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,167	hi josh, thanks for the added info. the more knowledge the better it came from a general antique dealer without any provenance as to where it had been living before he got it. the only info is that he thought it was chinese possibly 18th century. i'll try emailing him to see if he has any info on where he got it that he can release....

7th March 2008, 04:06 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,167	the dealer i got it from has told me he bought it in a bric-a-brac market stall, he's going back there next week & will ask them if they have any more info on where they got it. watch this space, but don't hold yer breath.