"Snickersnee?"

fearn · 18th September 2010, 08:17 AM

I just ran into this wonderful term again. It's supposedly a corruption of the dutch for "thrust and cut," and in Victorian England, it supposedly went from a term for knife fighting to mean a large, sword-like knife. It also made an appearance in Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado (who was wearing a snickersnee in one verse).

My question: has anyone ever seen a large, late Victorian knife or sword actually labelled as a snickersnee, or was it just a word? Since it showed up in the Mikado, I'm also wondering if perhaps it had something to do with Japanese blades, and Victorian misperceptions of these weapons.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2010, 06:56 PM

Another good one Fearn!

"...as I gnashed my teeth, when from its sheath
I drew my snickersnee".
William S. Gilbert
" The Mikado" (1885)

As you've already noted, this unusual term is a corruption of the old Dutch words, stecken (=stick or thrust); snee, from 'snijden' (=to cut). The term itself seems to have developed by about 17th century, but had become used figuratively as well, suggesting combat or fighting, scrapping as well as any weapon used to do so in cutting or knife fighting sense.

It seems it was used in political parlance in more recent times, i.e. "..you grasp any snickersnee you can get hold of and fight the best way you can".
-Va. Democrat Howard V. Smith

The apocryphal story about a Japanese sword falling off the wall in Gilbert's study, startling him out of his writers block to produce a new opera to meet a contract is of course contrived in degree. Actually, by the 1880's, the British fascination with all things Japanese was at a peak, and Gilbert, much as many Londoners, had the sword probably as a conversation piece like many such items available at the time. Apparantly, the sword did exist as stated, and did inspire the Japanese theme, however the falling off the wall thing probably never happened ("The Sword that Never Fell", Brian Jones).

"The Mikado" was a satire and comedy used metaphorically to disguise Gilbert's criticisms of matters at hand in London in those times, and with such dramatically exotic setting worked perfectly. As it seems, many of the names, terms etc. seemed almost Dickensian in silliness, and the funny sounding term, snickersnee fit well into the context in trying to portray otherwise grim things humorously.

Much as the way the term, scimitar, has crept into the descriptive terms used for weapons, the term snickersnee is likely a literary prop more than describing an actual weapon. I admit I honestly had never heard the term before this, and its great to learn more on it.

The tale of the sword falling off the wall though rings well to me...I can recall sitting at the desk in my own study once some years ago, and a sabre sitting on a shelf in the bookcase behind me fell off. It struck the chair I was sitting in, leaving a great nick in the arm of the chair, and scared the u know what outa me! Even if I didnt have writers block, it sure got my engine runnin'!

Thanks very much Fearn,
All the best,
Jim

fearn · 18th September 2010, 07:39 PM

Thanks Jim for that great summary.

Admittedly, I got to it from rereading Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky:

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

The interesting things here are that: a) no one (including Lewis Carroll) knows what vorpal really means, b) the vorpal sword normally portrayed as some knightly great sword, but c) there's general agreement that Carroll was thinking of a snickersnee when he wrote snicker-snack. (Wikipedia link).

I know that Jabberwocky is a non-sense poem, but I keep wondering if there was yet another hidden joke in there, if Carroll was thinking of a kitchen knife when John Tenniel (and everyone after him) drew the vorpal sword as some sort of dragon-beheading heroic weapon. Lewis Carroll did like jokes like that.

Best,

F

stephen wood · 19th September 2010, 02:16 AM

"First let me say my catechism,
Which my poor mother taught me."
"Make haste! make haste!" says guzzling Jimmy,
While Jack pulled on his snicker-snee."

...I remember this from school.

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2010, 04:02 AM

Fearn, ya rascal! I knew there was more to this

You are truly a man of eclectic esoterica, and what fun it is to hear these tidbits in literature.
You're right, there is far so much more to Carroll, and for that matter most of these Victorian writers. Its like art, there is so much more than seen or read.

"...whilst part of what we perceive comes from our senses from the object before us, another part (and it may the larger part) always comes out of our own mind".
-William James

I think it is why it is so timeless.

Stephen, a great example of what another parlance might be? I always love it when these unusual topics bring out so much from us all.

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 19th September 2010, 05:37 AM

Why thank you sir!

Beside that, it's fun to come across the name of an unknown weapon, and try to figure out if the thing really existed or not. If a snickersnee is a literary prop and not a real weapon, then it's fitting that the vorpal sword is a snickersnee, isn't it?

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2010, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Why thank you sir!

Beside that, it's fun to come across the name of an unknown weapon, and try to figure out if the thing really existed or not. If a snickersnee is a literary prop and not a real weapon, then it's fitting that the vorpal sword is a snickersnee, isn't it?

Best,

F

Absotively!!! and very well deduced!!! Curiouser and Curiouser!!!!

Great stuff Fearn,

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 19th September 2010, 07:53 AM

"No one knows what 'vorpal' really means..."

Gary Gygax did! It was a sword that could behead with a certain roll of the dice. -

Sorry, my inner nerd came out. But a vorpal sword in that esteemed gaming system was simply a beheading sword. Interesting topic!

fearn · 19th September 2010, 07:10 PM

Weeellll...that's where I came from too. Ahh, misspent youth!

But notice what the vorpal sword "actually" does:

"One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back."

Without Gary Gygax to interpret for us, it sure looks like the our hero is using the vorpal blade like a rapier or cut-and-thrust sword: he could easily have dealt the jabberwock four stabs. THEN he cuts off the jabberwock's head, but it doesn't even say what he did it with. For all we know, the dude used his pigsticker to decapitate the jabberwock.

But ever since Gygax (and probably before), the vorpal sword has been a beheading sword. Gotta read the original source.

Anyway, that's when I got curious about what a snickersnee was, if it ever existed.

Best,

F

Berkley · 19th September 2010, 11:42 PM

From Life Magazine, May 2 & 28, 1960, yet another take on the G&S snickersnee:

fearn · 20th September 2010, 07:01 AM

Excellent! We finally have a picture!

F

kronckew · 20th September 2010, 09:34 AM

recently read a scifi novel named 'the Vorpal Blade', by john ringo & travis taylor. it was about a US nuclear sub turned into a FTL interstellar warship by inclusion of an alien artifact that turned out to be a ftl engine. i'd forgot they named it based on jabberwocky. it had a swordlike protrusion from it's bow...

just thought it was amusing how these weapons terms get introduced into everyday usage and how their original meanings get mangled..

celtan · 20th September 2010, 04:42 PM

Any good? I'm having problems finding decent SF novels a la Bradbury, Asimov, Drake, Bova, MacCaffrey, Bear...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

recently read a scifi novel named 'the Vorpal Blade', by john ringo & travis taylor. it was about a US nuclear sub turned into a FTL interstellar warship by inclusion of an alien artifact that turned out to be a ftl engine. i'd forgot they named it based on jabberwocky. it had a swordlike protrusion from it's bow...

just thought it was amusing how these weapons terms get introduced into everyday usage and how their original meanings get mangled..

kronckew · 21st September 2010, 08:18 AM

celtan, see PM.

18th September 2010, 08:17 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	"Snickersnee?" I just ran into this wonderful term again. It's supposedly a corruption of the dutch for "thrust and cut," and in Victorian England, it supposedly went from a term for knife fighting to mean a large, sword-like knife. It also made an appearance in Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado (who was wearing a snickersnee in one verse). My question: has anyone ever seen a large, late Victorian knife or sword actually labelled as a snickersnee, or was it just a word? Since it showed up in the Mikado, I'm also wondering if perhaps it had something to do with Japanese blades, and Victorian misperceptions of these weapons. Best, F

18th September 2010, 06:56 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Another good one Fearn! "...as I gnashed my teeth, when from its sheath I drew my snickersnee". William S. Gilbert " The Mikado" (1885) As you've already noted, this unusual term is a corruption of the old Dutch words, stecken (=stick or thrust); snee, from 'snijden' (=to cut). The term itself seems to have developed by about 17th century, but had become used figuratively as well, suggesting combat or fighting, scrapping as well as any weapon used to do so in cutting or knife fighting sense. It seems it was used in political parlance in more recent times, i.e. "..you grasp any snickersnee you can get hold of and fight the best way you can". -Va. Democrat Howard V. Smith The apocryphal story about a Japanese sword falling off the wall in Gilbert's study, startling him out of his writers block to produce a new opera to meet a contract is of course contrived in degree. Actually, by the 1880's, the British fascination with all things Japanese was at a peak, and Gilbert, much as many Londoners, had the sword probably as a conversation piece like many such items available at the time. Apparantly, the sword did exist as stated, and did inspire the Japanese theme, however the falling off the wall thing probably never happened ("The Sword that Never Fell", Brian Jones). "The Mikado" was a satire and comedy used metaphorically to disguise Gilbert's criticisms of matters at hand in London in those times, and with such dramatically exotic setting worked perfectly. As it seems, many of the names, terms etc. seemed almost Dickensian in silliness, and the funny sounding term, snickersnee fit well into the context in trying to portray otherwise grim things humorously. Much as the way the term, scimitar, has crept into the descriptive terms used for weapons, the term snickersnee is likely a literary prop more than describing an actual weapon. I admit I honestly had never heard the term before this, and its great to learn more on it. The tale of the sword falling off the wall though rings well to me...I can recall sitting at the desk in my own study once some years ago, and a sabre sitting on a shelf in the bookcase behind me fell off. It struck the chair I was sitting in, leaving a great nick in the arm of the chair, and scared the u know what outa me! Even if I didnt have writers block, it sure got my engine runnin'! Thanks very much Fearn, All the best, Jim Attached Images

18th September 2010, 07:39 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Jim for that great summary. Admittedly, I got to it from rereading Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky: One, two! One, two! and through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. The interesting things here are that: a) no one (including Lewis Carroll) knows what vorpal really means, b) the vorpal sword normally portrayed as some knightly great sword, but c) there's general agreement that Carroll was thinking of a snickersnee when he wrote snicker-snack. (Wikipedia link). I know that Jabberwocky is a non-sense poem, but I keep wondering if there was yet another hidden joke in there, if Carroll was thinking of a kitchen knife when John Tenniel (and everyone after him) drew the vorpal sword as some sort of dragon-beheading heroic weapon. Lewis Carroll did like jokes like that. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 18th September 2010 at 10:58 PM.

19th September 2010, 02:16 AM	#4
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	"First let me say my catechism, Which my poor mother taught me." "Make haste! make haste!" says guzzling Jimmy, While Jack pulled on his snicker-snee." ...I remember this from school.

19th September 2010, 04:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Fearn, ya rascal! I knew there was more to this You are truly a man of eclectic esoterica, and what fun it is to hear these tidbits in literature. You're right, there is far so much more to Carroll, and for that matter most of these Victorian writers. Its like art, there is so much more than seen or read. "...whilst part of what we perceive comes from our senses from the object before us, another part (and it may the larger part) always comes out of our own mind". -William James I think it is why it is so timeless. Stephen, a great example of what another parlance might be? I always love it when these unusual topics bring out so much from us all. All the best, Jim

19th September 2010, 05:37 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Why thank you sir! Beside that, it's fun to come across the name of an unknown weapon, and try to figure out if the thing really existed or not. If a snickersnee is a literary prop and not a real weapon, then it's fitting that the vorpal sword is a snickersnee, isn't it? Best, F

19th September 2010, 07:53 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	"No one knows what 'vorpal' really means..." Gary Gygax did! It was a sword that could behead with a certain roll of the dice. - Sorry, my inner nerd came out. But a vorpal sword in that esteemed gaming system was simply a beheading sword. Interesting topic!

19th September 2010, 07:10 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Weeellll...that's where I came from too. Ahh, misspent youth! But notice what the vorpal sword "actually" does: "One, two! One, two! and through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back." Without Gary Gygax to interpret for us, it sure looks like the our hero is using the vorpal blade like a rapier or cut-and-thrust sword: he could easily have dealt the jabberwock four stabs. THEN he cuts off the jabberwock's head, but it doesn't even say what he did it with. For all we know, the dude used his pigsticker to decapitate the jabberwock. But ever since Gygax (and probably before), the vorpal sword has been a beheading sword. Gotta read the original source. Anyway, that's when I got curious about what a snickersnee was, if it ever existed. Best, F

19th September 2010, 11:42 PM	#10
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	From Life Magazine, May 2 & 28, 1960, yet another take on the G&S snickersnee:

20th September 2010, 07:01 AM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Excellent! We finally have a picture! F

20th September 2010, 09:34 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	recently read a scifi novel named 'the Vorpal Blade', by john ringo & travis taylor. it was about a US nuclear sub turned into a FTL interstellar warship by inclusion of an alien artifact that turned out to be a ftl engine. i'd forgot they named it based on jabberwocky. it had a swordlike protrusion from it's bow... just thought it was amusing how these weapons terms get introduced into everyday usage and how their original meanings get mangled..

21st September 2010, 08:18 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	celtan, see PM.