Tibetan sword: real?????

[ariel]

The cardinal rule is that every antique weapon sold from China is a fake.
So far so good.
Look at this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...7382&rd=1&rd=1
It has a hairpin blade and this is considered to be an unmistakeable sign of an authentically old blade.
Question:
Is this one real despite its Chinese origin of sale?
If not, are we witnessing a further level of sophistication in Chinese fakes?

[Lew]

[QUOTE=ariel]The cardinal rule is that every antique weapon sold from China is a fake.

Enough said!


Lew

[Tim Simmons]

Very clever almost an art like the art of painting forgers. {copyists }

[katana]

I'm not certain...but the blade surface looks slightly 'ripple-ed' . It suggests to me ,assuming this is a fake, that perhaps it was 'acid etched' with areas 'masked off' with wax

[Bill M]

Virginia, aren't you a little old to be believing in Chinese fairy tales?

[spiral]

Thats a real laminated blade, forging flaws from lack of flux just like the originals, But The Chinese fakers can do that.{they have done it for years, only there poorest & commonest fakes are just etched.} Looks like ithe blades been around a while though.

Its quick ,fast ,rough course lamination, just like the genuine old Tibet work, but just look at handle, scabbard & scabbard stiching, it real low quality junk all round.

I guess theres a 25% chance {IMHO of course.} that its a real old blade with "restored fittings & scabbard" to use western dealers & collecters current parlance.


Spiral

[kai]

I'm not certain...but the blade surface looks slightly 'ripple-ed' . It suggests to me ,assuming this is a fake, that perhaps it was 'acid etched' with areas 'masked off' with wax

Hmm, just fairy tales? Sure, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this is a 21st century piece. OTOH, the laminations in question look interesting and much better than anything I've seen achieved by wax and acid etching.

http://www.tibet-buddhism.com/buddhist/mrm/b2310-7.JPG
http://www.tibet-buddhism.com/buddhist/mrm/b2310-8.JPG
In these 2 close-ups the blade looks laminated to me: there seem to be forging flaws which may follow the staining pattern. Even the surface rust seems to partially follow the laminations:
http://www.tibet-buddhism.com/buddhist/mrm/b2310-11.JPG

I'd certainly like to see high-rez pics before betting much money though.
If this really happens to be a paint job, I'm going to reetch any wootz blade myself before buying in the future!

BTW, I can't see what's so difficult about the hairpin pattern that it can't be reproduced by the Chinese facilities (or a competent rural blacksmith in the middle of nowhere for that matter) - the Chinese fakers have already been pouring out pretty complex laminated blades for years. Would be much more interesting to verify wether this really has an inserted steel edge with a good hardness...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Spiral beat me to it...

BTW, is it just me or are others also encountering frequent vikingsword server timeout errors lately?

[Rick]

Hello Kai,
Yes the site has been running slowly for me too.
I'm on cable.

[Oriental-Arms]

I think it is not a fake. The blade is real and early, 1900 or so. Spiral gave all the good reasons for it. The handle and the scabbard are crudely made but made for use and not for sale to tourists. both are mid 20 C. or a bit earlier. The only suspicious part may be the scabbard tip, but also this IMHO is a crudely made tip to cover a possible damage to the leather.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Oriental-Arms

I think it is not a fake. The blade is real and early, 1900 or so. Spiral gave all the good reasons for it. The handle and the scabbard are crudely made but made for use and not for sale to tourists. both are mid 20 C. or a bit earlier. The only suspicious part may be the scabbard tip, but also this IMHO is a crudely made tip to cover a possible damage to the leather.

Suddenly and for some strange reason, I am interested in this sword!

Like I said, I always liked it..........

[dennee]

The only thing that bothers me is that this is the third sword I have seen in a week (in photos) with horn grips, something that is not rare but certainly less common among Tibetan swords. One of them had a similar chape although of white metal and a little better quality. The pommels of the other two were different from this one but similar to each other. This pommel is of a southeastern type, seen among the Poba, etc.

Each of the three swords is convincing to a different degree, but it is the coincidence that bothers me. And I do think the scabbard stitching is poor, although the scabbard form is an authentic one.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by dennee

The only thing that bothers me is that this is the third sword I have seen in a week (in photos) with horn grips, something that is not rare but certainly less common among Tibetan swords. One of them had a similar chape although of white metal and a little better quality. The pommels of the other two were different from this one but similar to each other. This pommel is of a southeastern type, seen among the Poba, etc.

Each of the three swords is convincing to a different degree, but it is the coincidence that bothers me. And I do think the scabbard stitching is poor, although the scabbard form is an authentic one.

True, dennee, you have a point. Hmmm

[VANDOO]

THE RED CORAL LOOKS LIKE THE DYED CORAL COMING OUT OF CHINA IN MASS. FOR AN EXAMPLE OF HOW GOOD CHINESE FORGERYS CAN BE TAKE A LOOK AT EBAY ITEM 160122843989. THEY ARE MAKEING SOME VERY CONVINCING OLD AMERICAN COINS SO FAR THEY ARE LISTED AS COPYS OR REPLICAS I GUESS TO AVOID BREAKING COUNTERFIT LAWS TO BLATANTLY. I WAS LOOKING AT THE SMALL STONE CARVINGS WHEN I RAN ACROSS THE COINS. IF YOU WANT TO SEE A WIDE VARIETY OF COINS BEING MADE SEE THE SELLERS OTHER ITEMS.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE RED CORAL LOOKS LIKE THE DYED CORAL COMING OUT OF CHINA IN MASS. FOR AN EXAMPLE OF HOW GOOD CHINESE FORGERYS CAN BE TAKE A LOOK AT EBAY ITEM 160122843989. THEY ARE MAKEING SOME VERY CONVINCING OLD AMERICAN COINS SO FAR THEY ARE LISTED AS COPYS OR REPLICAS I GUESS TO AVOID BREAKING COUNTERFIT LAWS TO BLATANTLY. I WAS LOOKING AT THE SMALL STONE CARVINGS WHEN I RAN ACROSS THE COINS.

Interesting. A Chinese seller admitting he sells copies. What is the world coming to?

When I grew up, my father's newspaper printing business was in a questionable part of downtown Atlanta. Street bums were always trying to cadge a bit of change. Usually the excuse was they needed to get something to eat or to get out of town and needed bus fare. However the local, nearby bars were where they headed.

One day a guy came up to me and said, "Buddy, I aint gonna lie to you. I need 50 cents for a cold beer." I though this was a refreshingly honest guy and gave him a dollar.

Walking smugly along I was accosted by another bum. He began, "Buddy, I ain't gonna lie to you....."

[spiral]

Intresting that the sellers currently listing 10 variations of Tibet sword.

To me most of the blades look real. old & laminated. {Hard to belive but they do look right, even the pitting looks genuine.}

Amazing array of modern scabbards & handels though including another one in identicle tone of buffalo horn.

Nepal is full of rusty old blades, perhaps this was a similar cache from Tibet or Bhutan etc. {or even Nepal, China India,.]

Re handled , new scabbards & straight on to ebay.

Doubt if Chinese customs would be concerned about these blades somehow, hardly Chinese heritage.

But sadley overpriced.

Spiral

ps if the blades are fake, their getting good at ageing.

[ariel]

I am glad I started this thread.
When professional collectors cannot agree on the authenticity of an object, there is a high chance we are dealing with a very high-class forgery.
Currently, the seller lists 10 old Tibetan swords/daggers ranging between $500-$2,500. Each one looks perfectly old and authentic.

[Michael Blalock]

The sword could be genuine. They have a lot of very overpriced genuine looking antiquies, as much as $99,000.00 buy it now, then there are the $39.00 rugs. I think the stuff over a couple of hundred is just there to get hits on their site. If you go to their website they specialize in mass produced rugs. I would be supprised if you bid you would win the sword. There is another Chinese survey equipment company that does the same thing. They produce a cheap instument and also sell quality ones at a very high price, which only seem to be pruchased by chinese.

[spiral]

I reckon if you bid $2000 on one of those at least half fake rusty bits of junk sword they will be happy to let you have it!


There multiple thousand dollar pieces of Antique Tibetan woodwork, I can see are brand new, like within last few months. {I used to work as a cabinet maker.} So perhaps Ariel is right.

If even the blades are fake, its the realist fake pitting Ive ever seen. Or is it? I guess the best fakes are never recognised as such.

Thats a sobering thought.

Spiral

[BBJW]

Obvious fake. Scabbard looks cheesy and blade shape isn't right.

bbjw

[josh stout]

I looked at all of the blades and they look genuine. However, in the condition they are in, they would not cost much as just the blade in Tibet. The scabbards have a bit of variation in what is fake and what is not. As mentioned the stones and coral look dyed, and there are many relatively recent additions and repairs. There was one blade with unfortunate fittings that even has the rare "jelly role" folding pattern like the one toward the bottom of this page (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/tibet/index.html). The swords are clearly not worth the asking price, but they are not completely fake either. I would say these are typical of many Chinese dealers on eBay or elsewhere. Some things are real, while some things are not. Let the buyer beware. Due to the bad condition of the blades and mixed age of the fittings I would say these are overpriced by about a factor of ten.
Josh

[dennee]

I wouldn't judge based on dyed coral; the practice of dying coral goes way back. Tibetans, far from the sea, were naturally importing it and even by the turn of the twentieth century, they were getting, indirectly, coral dyed in Italy, I believe.

But overall condition is something to attend to. Because coral and turquoise were so prized and reusable for all sorts of decoration (swords, rings, headdresses, necklaces, saddles, etc.) I find that authentic old swords probably usually have the stones removed, as they were a portable bit of wealth that one need not give up when parting with a blade.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by dennee

Tibetans, far from the sea, were naturally importing it and even by the turn of the twentieth century, they were getting, indirectly, coral dyed in Italy, I believe.

.

I dont think I have ever seen a real red coral inlay yet.

Coralite or Coraline limestone occur in Nepal , Tibet & Bhutan,That was the typicle material used.

It might be a long way from the see today but the Himalayan mountains are full of Ammonites & other sea fossils. Times change the landscape.

Turquise & for the last many years howlite dyed blue or green & also red are also common fakes for both turquise & so called red coral.

Carnelian also is often used for weapons inlay & usualy mistakenly reffered to as red coral.

Spiral

[josh stout]

Those are some interesting insights on stones. I can tell something is recent when the colors are very bright, but now I realize older stones might have that faded look precisely because they were dyed with older dyes that fade. What do you think of this one? It is genuine, but what is it?

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ation378-1.jpg

Also, I was thinking about the idea that these blades could be recent forgeries, and why I suspect not. I realized that modern Chinese pattern welds while seeming complex and labor intensive like traditional pattern welds, have one major difference. The modern ones are ground into the shape of a blade, while even simple piled rod construction as seen on Tibetan pieces requires the blade to be forged into shape. This is a much more skilled process than simply grinding to shape, and is why hairpin folding on a blade is still evidence of authenticity.
Josh

[spiral]

Josh, If you can scratch it with a pin its probabably limestone or howlite. if you cant its almost certanly carnelain.


Before I am accused of recomending vandalism Only a minute scratch, visible only with hand lens is neccsary, not a great defacing gouge.


Spiral

[josh stout]

Thanks for the tip. Metal does not scratch the stone. It also looks like the stone might have been recycled from something else as it has a hole in the center for attachment, but there is nothing in the hole.
Josh

[spiral]

Its certanly carnelian then. Re. the drilled hole carnelian necklaces are very common throughout the Himalayas, {often sold as coral of course! }

I think old beads are often the source of the inlay on Himalayen weapons, sometimes they put a pin , nail or rivit through them sometimes, to hold them in place & sometimes just to hide or fill the hole.

Spiral