Visayan barong?

[ShazamsLaw]

Didn't really know that the visayans used barongs.

Since there seems to be a visayan barong, then its probably safe to assume that Filipinos like the Visayans used the Kampilan and the Panabas at least.

[David]

Well, this is a brand new mass marketed weapon. I'm not saying that the Visayans never used barongs, but this new product isn't very good proof of it despite the company calling itself Traditional Filipino Weapons.

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by David

Well, this is a brand new mass marketed weapon. I'm not saying that the Visayans never used barongs, but this new product isn't very good proof of it despite the company calling itself Traditional Filipino Weapons.

Would you know any proof of Visayan kampilans? Hard to believe that the Japanese would have longswords and the Filipinos didn't.

[Ian]

Shazam,

I know of no traditional use of the barung (or kampilan or bangkung) by the people living in the Visayas. There are many of Visayan descent who live in Mindanao, especially Davao City, and it is possible that they may have sporadically used such Moro weapons. On the other hand, there are known examples of Moro kris in Visayan dress, and a number of these have been shown on this Forum. I know of no historical reference to the systematic use of Moro weapons by people native to the Visayas (such as the Ilonggo, Warai, Bisayan, Cebuano, etc.).

The adoption of weapons by different ethnic groups reflects the uses required of them. Many Filipino ethnic groups use swords that have shorter blades than a lot of other groups in Asia and SE Asia. This probably reflects the style of fighting they adopted. There are several martial arts styles practiced in the Philippines.

The picture that you show above is from a site that features modern interpretations of Filipino weapons, and some of their examples are pretty much fantasy weapons. I don't consider it an authoritative source for information about traditional Philippine weapons.

Ian.

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by Ian

Shazam,

I know of no traditional use of the barung (or kampilan or bangkung) by the people living in the Visayas. There are many of Visayan descent who live in Mindanao, especially Davao City, and it is possible that they may have sporadically used such Moro weapons. On the other hand, there are known examples of Moro kris in Visayan dress, and a number of these have been shown on this Forum. I know of no historical reference to the systematic use of Moro weapons by people native to the Visayas (such as the Ilonggo, Warai, Bisayan, Cebuano, etc.).

The adoption of weapons by different ethnic groups reflects the uses required of them. Many Filipino ethnic groups use swords that have shorter blades than a lot of other groups in Asia and SE Asia. This probably reflects the style of fighting they adopted. There are several martial arts styles practiced in the Philippines.

The picture that you show above is from a site that features modern interpretations of Filipino weapons, and some of their examples are pretty much fantasy weapons. I don't consider it an authoritative source for information about traditional Philippine weapons.

Ian.

Hello Ian,



There has been a previous thread that talks about a kampilan potentially being Visayan, which is here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4469



There has also been depictions of Visayans using the kampilan in Filipino media such as the tv show: "amaya" and wondered how accurate that is in depicting ancient Visayans.
As someone who is passionate in uncovering artifacts that may have been lost during the pre-hispanic times, I always assumed that the lack of the Kampilan and kris is a result of Visayans being under Spanish colonization and not because they never made them.

Likewise, using the kris, armor and many other things have been abandoned during the era of the Spanish empire in favor of using the famous bolo
due to many Filipinos being farmers/workersof the land.
Its no completely unheard of to hear that Visayans imported long swords from foreign nations which is why I don't recall the Visayans choice of using mostly short swords a definite one.

Martial arts is a debatable topic as it is claimed by many that it is primarily hispanic in origin and is non-existent prior to colonization.



Sorry for the long post, but propagating the Visayans using the kampilan and not mostly just their knives or short swords doesn't exactly fit well for a people surrounded by other(s) use of longer blades. Especially that somehow a people such as the Thai or Moros are able to make and use them while the Visayans do not.

[Ian]

Shazam,

I think we are in the realm of high speculation about the possible use of Moro weapons by people living in the Visayas. Anything is possible, but we really need written or pictorial evidence that this did indeed occur. The finding of Visayan elements on traditional Moro weapons is hardly surprising given the proximity of Visayans and Moros on Mindanao. However, such findings do not necessarily imply the use of those weapons by Visayans.

Remember too that not all Moros use the kampilan. It is a weapon mainly of Muslims living on Mindanao (the Maranao and Maguindanao groups), and is not favored by those living in the Sulu Archipelago. There are examples of groups living in Kalimantan who also use the kampilan (possibly the Sea Dayaks), and this may have been the route for introduction of the kampilan into Mindanao. Barung are favored in the Sulu Archipelago and less so on Mindanao, while various forms of the kris and panabas seem to have been popular throughout Moroland.

I would come back to the notion that fighting style and whom one is fighting will largely determine preferences in weapons. People living in the Visayas may not have come in contact with foes wielding long swords very often. Like many groups throughout the Philippines, their preference seems to have been for shorter swords, especially those designed to slice and chop rather than stab. I'm speaking in generalities of course, and there is always room for occasional variations and exceptions based on individual preference.

Ian.

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by Ian

Shazam,

I think we are in the realm of high speculation about the possible use of Moro weapons by people living in the Visayas. Anything is possible, but we really need written or pictorial evidence that this did indeed occur. The finding of Visayan elements on traditional Moro weapons is hardly surprising given the proximity of Visayans and Moros on Mindanao. However, such findings do not necessarily imply the use of those weapons by Visayans.

Remember too that not all Moros use the kampilan. It is a weapon mainly of Muslims living on Mindanao (the Maranao and Maguindanao groups), and is not favored by those living in the Sulu Archipelago. There are examples of groups living in Kalimantan who also use the kampilan (possibly the Sea Dayaks), and this may have been the route for introduction of the kampilan into Mindanao. Barung are favored in the Sulu Archipelago and less so on Mindanao, while various forms of the kris and panabas seem to have been popular throughout Moroland.

I would come back to the notion that fighting style and whom one is fighting will largely determine preferences in weapons. People living in the Visayas may not have come in contact with foes wielding long swords very often. Like many groups throughout the Philippines, their preference seems to have been for shorter swords, especially those designed to slice and chop rather than stab. I'm speaking in generalities of course, and there is always room for occasional variations and exceptions based on individual preference.

Ian.

Ian,


Thank you for your input. In regards to the pictorial evidence, the link I posted earlier was on a kampilan that apparently was of Visayan creation? I'd imagine that if the kris sword was popular among Visayans at one point, then there's a possibility that the kampilan was too, at least for those that could afford it. I'd imagine the Visayans weren't so ignorant of using such weapons while being surrounded by people that did, considering that they even imported katanas from Japanese merchants

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by Ian

Shazam,

I think we are in the realm of high speculation about the possible use of Moro weapons by people living in the Visayas. Anything is possible, but we really need written or pictorial evidence that this did indeed occur. The finding of Visayan elements on traditional Moro weapons is hardly surprising given the proximity of Visayans and Moros on Mindanao. However, such findings do not necessarily imply the use of those weapons by Visayans.

Remember too that not all Moros use the kampilan. It is a weapon mainly of Muslims living on Mindanao (the Maranao and Maguindanao groups), and is not favored by those living in the Sulu Archipelago. There are examples of groups living in Kalimantan who also use the kampilan (possibly the Sea Dayaks), and this may have been the route for introduction of the kampilan into Mindanao. Barung are favored in the Sulu Archipelago and less so on Mindanao, while various forms of the kris and panabas seem to have been popular throughout Moroland.

I would come back to the notion that fighting style and whom one is fighting will largely determine preferences in weapons. People living in the Visayas may not have come in contact with foes wielding long swords very often. Like many groups throughout the Philippines, their preference seems to have been for shorter swords, especially those designed to slice and chop rather than stab. I'm speaking in generalities of course, and there is always room for occasional variations and exceptions based on individual preference.

Ian.

Another thing I'd like to add is that, "Lapu-Lapu" who I'm assuming is a Visayan used what is described as a "scrimitar but only larger" in relation to long blades being used by Visayans.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by ShazamsLaw

Hello Ian,



There has been a previous thread that talks about a kampilan potentially being Visayan, which is here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4469



There has also been depictions of Visayans using the kampilan in Filipino media such as the tv show: "amaya" and wondered how accurate that is in depicting ancient Visayans.
As someone who is passionate in uncovering artifacts that may have been lost during the pre-hispanic times, I always assumed that the lack of the Kampilan and kris is a result of Visayans being under Spanish colonization and not because they never made them.

Likewise, using the kris, armor and many other things have been abandoned during the era of the Spanish empire in favor of using the famous bolo
due to many Filipinos being farmers/workersof the land.
Its no completely unheard of to hear that Visayans imported long swords from foreign nations which is why I don't recall the Visayans choice of using mostly short swords a definite one.

Martial arts is a debatable topic as it is claimed by many that it is primarily hispanic in origin and is non-existent prior to colonization.



Sorry for the long post, but propagating the Visayans using the kampilan and not mostly just their knives or short swords doesn't exactly fit well for a people surrounded by other(s) use of longer blades. Especially that somehow a people such as the Thai or Moros are able to make and use them while the Visayans do not.

Hi,

To my knowledge, the Pulahanes, an esoteric group of rebels, primarily utilized the talibong, a crescent-shaped blade with an angled hilt and a belly that was thicker than the rest of the blade. According to the references I've read, the Pulahanes wrought havoc during the tail-end of the Spanish rule (1896 onwards, during the revolution triggered by Jose Rizal's death) and lasted until the American occupation (pre-WW2) in select areas such as Leyte and Cebu. This weapon came in various iterations, but to my knowledge, some of them were quite long (mine, a pre-WW2 variant, measures a total of 32 inches). Furthemore, there are also other long weapons- the Pinuti Lawihan, which was estimated to exist also during the 1900s in Bantayan, Cebu, can measure up to 38 inches total length. Meanwhile, in Panay Island, there have been samples of Tenegres found to be more than 32 inches in total length. It's safe to assume that even during the early part of the Spanish rule, Visayans had long blades endemic to their areas that were not outlawed by any weapons ban, nor did they forsake these in favor of the bolo.

While there have indeed been assertions that the kampilan was used in the Visayas, I think this is the exception rather than the rule, and that the Visayas didn't have its own version of the kampilan per se, rather they imported it. The kampilan, along with other BangsaMoro weapons such as barung, kris, and pira, required a warrior to be versed in Moro Fighting Arts (MFA), which is traditionally made up of Sulu Silat / Kuntau styles- and these are not taught to outsiders, these are passed on only to trusted friends and family members. These arts are wholly different from FMA, which, for the most part, comes from Visayan Eskrima. Many accomplished and high-ranked FMAers have injured themselves trying to wield antique or traditional (not custom nor fantasy-like like that of TFW's) versions of BangsaMoro weapons because they did not know how to properly wield it according to the ideal MFA protocols.

The use of kampilan by Visayans in "Amaya" cannot be trusted; mainstream TV is full of inaccuracies and generalizations; sadly, Filipinos are not that well-versed in fact research. In fact, even the use of kampilans by Lapu-Lapu's warriors during the Battle of Mactan is being hotly debated nowadays (ironically, even Lapu-Lapu's presence in the battle is being contested).

Finally, going back to TFW, the company is run by a man who claims to be a 'blade historian' but ignores historical and anthropological research that totally debunks a lot of his claims on Filipino blades. His smiths in the Philippines are based in Pozzurubio, Pangasinan, an area which is infamously known as the 'clone capital' of Philippine blades- the smiths there copy other regions' blades, but they are unable, of course, to replicate the finer details such as weight distribution, balance, specific length and aesthetics, etc. This is the same company that claimed there is a "Visayan Barong" (I assure you, there is absolutely none) as well as coined the silly term "Itak Tagalog" (Tagalogs call a wide variety of blades as 'itak', there is no one blade that is called as 'itak Tagalog', because 'itak' is a general term).

[Rick]

I'd also like to note that the first post in this thread is literally an advert for a commercial venture which is expressly against the rules of behavior in all discussion forums here.

[Ian]

Shazam,

Rick is right. I intended to bring this up earlier but got sidetracked. The Discussion Forums do not permit commercial advertising. I have edited your picture to remove the URL.

Ian

[Ian]

xasterix:

Thank you for your lengthy comment and familiarity with the longer weapons of the Visayan groups. While the vast majority of native Visayan weapons were on the shorter side, there were, as you correctly noted, some that were quite long. I agree completely about the need to be practised in using the weapons of your culture, and that the weapons of the Moro peoples may not be well suited to Visayan use.

Originally Posted by xasterix

... mainstream TV is full of inaccuracies and generalizations; sadly, Filipinos are not that well-versed in fact research. In fact, even the use of kampilans by Lapu-Lapu's warriors during the Battle of Mactan is being hotly debated nowadays (ironically, even Lapu-Lapu's presence in the battle is being contested).

Indeed, mainstream TV has much to answer for, and a lot of traditional stories are being re-examined more critically.

... [cloning] smiths in the Philippines are based in Pozzurubio, Pangasinan, an area which is infamously known as the 'clone capital' of Philippine blades- the smiths there copy other regions' blades, but they are unable, of course, to replicate the finer details such as weight distribution, balance, specific length and aesthetics, etc. ...

Your reference to Pagnasinan as a source for "cloned" blades is interesting. There is a substantial Ilokano presence in Pagnasinan--do you know if these smiths are mainly Ilokanos? Also, do you know if this center of smithing was active during the U.S. military presence in Central Luzon? For some time I have been trying to source the large numbers of knives and swords that were brought back by U.S. servicemen post WWII. Ilokano styles were prominent among those bringbacks.

Ian.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

xasterix:

Thank you for your lengthy comment and familiarity with the longer weapons of the Visayan groups. While the vast majority of native Visayan weapons were on the shorter side, there were, as you correctly noted, some that were quite long. I agree completely about the need to be practised in using the weapons of your culture, and that the weapons of the Moro peoples may not be well suited to Visayan use.

Indeed, mainstream TV has much to answer for, and a lot of traditional stories are being re-examined more critically.

Your reference to Pagnasinan as a source for "cloned" blades is interesting. There is a substantial Ilokano presence in Pagnasinan--do you know if these smiths are mainly Ilokanos? Also, do you know if this center of smithing was active during the U.S. military presence in Central Luzon? For some time I have been trying to source the large numbers of knives and swords that were brought back by U.S. servicemen post WWII. Ilokano styles were prominent among those bringbacks.

Ian.

Greetings once again. Pozzurubio is a well-known blacksmithing town in Pangasinan, it's usually passed by on the way to Baguio. The smiths there initially gained fame by cloning European swords; when TFW started way back, the owner secured a deal with most of the smiths there. Nowadays, the blacksmithing town churns out 'cloned' European, Filipino traditional, and Japanese swords to various clients and middlemen. To my knowledge, they do not produce traditional Ilokano swords.

There is a town in Ilocos- Sta Maria- that was documented by Mr. Lorenz Lasco (migueldiaz in this forum) as still having master smiths capable of producing Ilokano traditional blades, even to the extent of reproducing antiques featured during the Ars Cives exhibit. I'll attach pics here, for your reference.

I have a pending order with one of those smiths; sadly, I've lost contact with the middleman (no answer the past couple of months), I hope to re-establish contact somehow.