Another for ID Assistance?

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 04:18 AM

Here's another that I just bought from Ebay that hasn't arrived yet:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT
My first impression when I saw it was of one of those African dance wands that were seen a couple of years ago, but the more I looked at it, the more it reminded me of a variant of an executioner's sword that I'd seen recently with a very similar blade........I can't remember the tribal designation, but at the time the comment was made that it was much less common than the Nagala form.
The more I looked at the weight and size of this one, the more it intruiged me until I just HAD to actually see and hold it.
What can I say...the pieces that are unusual just keep piqueing my curiosity to the point that I can't resist! **grin**
All of the time spent trying to identify them makes them more than just an impulse as well.

Ian · 15th February 2005, 06:08 AM

Mike:

I have a similar one that I picked up a few years ago. It was said to come from Benin too. Mine has a straight blade. Your's is much more interesting in shape. "Heavy and solid" is somewhat of an understatement -- these are a real handful. Not something I would want to use to defend myself in a fight (much too heavy and slow), but they would certainly make a great beheading implement!

Ian.

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 06:15 AM

LOL!
True...it's very difficult for a kneeling man with bound hands to jump out of the way!
I would presume that it's probably largely ceremonial or status oriented, although with many parts of the world it's not wise to consider these other uses all in the past either.
The apparent sharp edge along the back of the "hook" is what reminded me of a N'Gala sword and made me want to see up close, while yours being straight is even more curious....do you have a photo of it?

Ian · 15th February 2005, 06:40 AM

Mike:

Just pulled mine out and my memory was faulty. It has an upturned tip and a very slight recurve, but not nearly as pronounced as yours. The blackened handle is almost identical in its incised decoration, but the talismanic symbols on the blade are somewhat different. I will try to get some pictures in the next few days.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2005, 01:40 AM

Hi Mike,
This interesting sword does indeed appear from Benin, formerly known as Dahomey in the 19th century. It seems to be one of the ceremonial/ sacrificial sabres known locally there as 'hwi'. These are mentioned and illustrated nominally in "African Arms & Armour" by Christopher Spring (p.67) but the examples shown are a bit more elaborate. In the article Spring cites concerning these ("Sabres decores du Dahomey", Palau Marti, 1967) there are illustrations indicating the wider range of variation these 'hwi' carried, from very simple to elaborately artistic.
The marking on the blade seems to be a native interpretation of the cabalistic stars seen on talismanic motif on European blades on the 18th century, usually seen along with sun and crescent moon. It is common to see native application of these symbols on blades as they considered that these imbued the blades with power and quality. It is curious why only the star would be chosen, and possibly it closely associated with elements of their own folk religion.

The ritual ceremonies known in Dahomey were termed locally 'the custom' , while Sir Richard Burton, who observed the horrors of these sacrificial events in 1863, called them 'the Evil Nights'. There are illustrations of more of these 'hwi' in line drawings in Burton's "Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.167-69 along with narrative on this subject. These 'ceremonies' were of course finally suppressed, but the symbolism in the weapons are maintained in tradition.

It is interesting that on your blade there are chevrons inscribed, and Burton mentions that feature in his book in describing some of the weapons.

It is further interesting to note that the folk religion in Dahomey and its surrounding regions formed the basis for Vodun, which is the French term for what became known as Voodoo in the Caribbean and southern U.S. via the Africans who arrived unfortunately in the slave trade.

Best regards,
Jim

Conogre · 17th February 2005, 07:25 AM

Wow!
Thank you Jim....I'm digging out my "Spring's" now and will look up the other.
Thank you for a veritable wealth of knowledge on this one!
Now that the auction is over, I just narrowly missed out on a beautiful Shi sword, only the 3rd that I've seen and was crushed!

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2005, 12:41 AM

No problem Mike! I was glad I could come up with some useful information on this. You seem to have a keen eye for the unusual, as this item is, and it's always good to see these pieces end up in the hands of worthy collectors who will properly appreciate them. There is a world of history in these weapons, and as long as they end up being discussed on this forum, that history will be discovered and preserved.
Thank you very much for sharing it!
All the best,
Jim

Ian · 19th February 2005, 08:56 PM

Mike:

Here are pictures I took today of the one I have. Dimensions are similar to the one that is the subject of this topic. Note that the talismanic symbols are partly different. The symbols on the other side of teh blade are the same. Cutting edge is at the bottom of the blade in each picture.

Ian.

Conogre · 19th February 2005, 10:40 PM

Thanks for posting the photos, Ian....I was hoping that you would.
The amount of variation in hand made weapons never ceases to amaze me, with the diversity in some so great that similarity is almost non-existant.
A couple of questions on yours, if you don't mind...1) does the black patina look artificial, as in some chinese pieces or natural, and 2) does the sharp edge appear to be or have been as a functional piece or only nominally edged vs flat on the other side?
I had another that was pewter bladed with a wooden hilt, real but strictly ceremonial as are so many African artifacts.
The more I find out about African "weapons", the more it appears that weapons from places such as Java and the Philippines were superstition free in comparison, with many of the former intended for purposes that westerners may literally never comprehend or devine.
Ironically in almost all African sacrificial knives and swords, the cutting edge is opposite the hook or "wicked looking" parts as opposed to the Kora and several other pieces of Asian and there abouts derivation.
Again, thanks for taking the time as it's truly appreciated.

Ian · 20th February 2005, 07:45 AM

Mike:

The brass hilt has been intentionally blackened -- looks like paint, and some has rubbed off in places -- but I'm not sure about the blade. The blackening of some areas on the blade could be artificial. The sharpened edge could make the blade functional, and it may have been originally, but in its prsent state this one is unlikely to sever a head in a single blow.

Ian.

15th February 2005, 04:18 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Another for ID Assistance? Here's another that I just bought from Ebay that hasn't arrived yet: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWN:IT My first impression when I saw it was of one of those African dance wands that were seen a couple of years ago, but the more I looked at it, the more it reminded me of a variant of an executioner's sword that I'd seen recently with a very similar blade........I can't remember the tribal designation, but at the time the comment was made that it was much less common than the Nagala form. The more I looked at the weight and size of this one, the more it intruiged me until I just HAD to actually see and hold it. What can I say...the pieces that are unusual just keep piqueing my curiosity to the point that I can't resist! grin All of the time spent trying to identify them makes them more than just an impulse as well.

15th February 2005, 06:08 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Benin sword Mike: I have a similar one that I picked up a few years ago. It was said to come from Benin too. Mine has a straight blade. Your's is much more interesting in shape. "Heavy and solid" is somewhat of an understatement -- these are a real handful. Not something I would want to use to defend myself in a fight (much too heavy and slow), but they would certainly make a great beheading implement! Ian.

19th February 2005, 08:56 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Another hwi Mike: Here are pictures I took today of the one I have. Dimensions are similar to the one that is the subject of this topic. Note that the talismanic symbols are partly different. The symbols on the other side of teh blade are the same. Cutting edge is at the bottom of the blade in each picture. Ian. Attached Images

15th February 2005, 06:15 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	LOL! True...it's very difficult for a kneeling man with bound hands to jump out of the way! I would presume that it's probably largely ceremonial or status oriented, although with many parts of the world it's not wise to consider these other uses all in the past either. The apparent sharp edge along the back of the "hook" is what reminded me of a N'Gala sword and made me want to see up close, while yours being straight is even more curious....do you have a photo of it?

15th February 2005, 06:40 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Mike: Just pulled mine out and my memory was faulty. It has an upturned tip and a very slight recurve, but not nearly as pronounced as yours. The blackened handle is almost identical in its incised decoration, but the talismanic symbols on the blade are somewhat different. I will try to get some pictures in the next few days. Ian.

16th February 2005, 01:40 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mike, This interesting sword does indeed appear from Benin, formerly known as Dahomey in the 19th century. It seems to be one of the ceremonial/ sacrificial sabres known locally there as 'hwi'. These are mentioned and illustrated nominally in "African Arms & Armour" by Christopher Spring (p.67) but the examples shown are a bit more elaborate. In the article Spring cites concerning these ("Sabres decores du Dahomey", Palau Marti, 1967) there are illustrations indicating the wider range of variation these 'hwi' carried, from very simple to elaborately artistic. The marking on the blade seems to be a native interpretation of the cabalistic stars seen on talismanic motif on European blades on the 18th century, usually seen along with sun and crescent moon. It is common to see native application of these symbols on blades as they considered that these imbued the blades with power and quality. It is curious why only the star would be chosen, and possibly it closely associated with elements of their own folk religion. The ritual ceremonies known in Dahomey were termed locally 'the custom' , while Sir Richard Burton, who observed the horrors of these sacrificial events in 1863, called them 'the Evil Nights'. There are illustrations of more of these 'hwi' in line drawings in Burton's "Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.167-69 along with narrative on this subject. These 'ceremonies' were of course finally suppressed, but the symbolism in the weapons are maintained in tradition. It is interesting that on your blade there are chevrons inscribed, and Burton mentions that feature in his book in describing some of the weapons. It is further interesting to note that the folk religion in Dahomey and its surrounding regions formed the basis for Vodun, which is the French term for what became known as Voodoo in the Caribbean and southern U.S. via the Africans who arrived unfortunately in the slave trade. Best regards, Jim

17th February 2005, 07:25 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Wow! Thank you Jim....I'm digging out my "Spring's" now and will look up the other. Thank you for a veritable wealth of knowledge on this one! Now that the auction is over, I just narrowly missed out on a beautiful Shi sword, only the 3rd that I've seen and was crushed!

18th February 2005, 12:41 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	No problem Mike! I was glad I could come up with some useful information on this. You seem to have a keen eye for the unusual, as this item is, and it's always good to see these pieces end up in the hands of worthy collectors who will properly appreciate them. There is a world of history in these weapons, and as long as they end up being discussed on this forum, that history will be discovered and preserved. Thank you very much for sharing it! All the best, Jim

19th February 2005, 10:40 PM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thanks for posting the photos, Ian....I was hoping that you would. The amount of variation in hand made weapons never ceases to amaze me, with the diversity in some so great that similarity is almost non-existant. A couple of questions on yours, if you don't mind...1) does the black patina look artificial, as in some chinese pieces or natural, and 2) does the sharp edge appear to be or have been as a functional piece or only nominally edged vs flat on the other side? I had another that was pewter bladed with a wooden hilt, real but strictly ceremonial as are so many African artifacts. The more I find out about African "weapons", the more it appears that weapons from places such as Java and the Philippines were superstition free in comparison, with many of the former intended for purposes that westerners may literally never comprehend or devine. Ironically in almost all African sacrificial knives and swords, the cutting edge is opposite the hook or "wicked looking" parts as opposed to the Kora and several other pieces of Asian and there abouts derivation. Again, thanks for taking the time as it's truly appreciated.

20th February 2005, 07:45 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Mike: The brass hilt has been intentionally blackened -- looks like paint, and some has rubbed off in places -- but I'm not sure about the blade. The blackening of some areas on the blade could be artificial. The sharpened edge could make the blade functional, and it may have been originally, but in its prsent state this one is unlikely to sever a head in a single blow. Ian.