9 Ring Broadsword

Queequeg · 17th January 2011, 03:17 PM

Can anyone give an explanation of the 9 rings on the spine of certain Chinese broadswords?

http://www.gungfu.com/pics-general/p...broadsword.jpg
http://cdn2.iofferphoto.com/img/item...X5kC1LkA0B.jpg

At first glance, these swords make me wonder how badly the rings would affect the cutting of things like limbs and torsos (they are weapons, after all). I can't think of any good purpose for having them, although many aspects of kung-fu are admittedly quite esoteric to me and I could well be missing some logical and tactically sensible aspect here.

This thread said that the rings help in parrying/blocking, but it seems like an awful lot of work and extravagance when one could make a slightly thicker spine, instead.

Gavin Nugent · 17th January 2011, 08:11 PM

Hi Queequeg,

Interesting and fanciful swords notions. I've always wondered if there was such an antique dao with 9 rings and why 9 appears in modern kungfu circles....what are they based on?? To me these items they speak of are only watery stage props.

You are right in what you say about blocking, why not just have a thicker spine.

Show me a genuine antique dao with nine rings and I'll offer a genuine reason for the rings being there ;-)

Gav

Queequeg · 17th January 2011, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Queequeg,

Interesting and fanciful swords notions. I've always wondered if there was such an antique dao with 9 rings and why 9 appears in modern kungfu circles....what are they based on?? To me these items they speak of are only watery stage props.

You are right in what you say about blocking, why not just have a thicker spine.

Show me a genuine antique dao with nine rings and I'll offer a genuine reason for the rings being there ;-)

Gav

The one in the second photo I linked in the original post looks like it could either be an antique or a good repro.

Any ideas, then, because I sure don't have any.

fearn · 17th January 2011, 08:20 PM

I've heard several stories in kung fu schools.

The rings are meant to ring when you shake them, and I think the tradition of putting rings on swords goes back quite a ways. I remember seeing a description of a sword with something like three points, four rings, and five stars in the <i>Water Margin</i>. I don't know if that's in the original 16th Century version or if it is a more recent addition. I've also seen a description of a modern Miao or Hmong shaman using a sword shaped rattle in a ritual. There are similar traditions of gold coin swords in feng shui and peach wood swords in Taoist exorcisms.

The question for the nine rings is context, whether it's meant to be rung in religious dramas, or whether it's meant to be rung in a street performance to be more dramatic. My bet is both. Kungfu, like capoeira and Pentjak-Silat, has a performance branch (wushu) as well as a martial branch (guoshu), and I think the nine rings swords belong squarely in the performance arena.

Best,

F

Neil · 17th January 2011, 08:58 PM

This type of sword is mentioned by Philip in the following post as a street performers tool.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=boxer

I think the example in the second picture is a modern reproduction.

I also think there is a lot of misinformation abound in modern Chinese martial art circles about the reality of historic weaponry. I have been personally trying to unravel this puzzle for my own understanding as one such martial artist for a long time. The problem is there seems to be somewhat of an institution of misinformation related to magazine publications and kung fu books etc. versus much credible scholarship. For the record I want to say how much I appreciate this forum as a venue to see and discuss real Chinese historic arms.

Neil · 17th January 2011, 09:21 PM

Thought this might be thought provoking as well.

Gavin Nugent · 17th January 2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

Thought this might be thought provoking as well.

A good image Neil but that ring is for suspension, as Philip has also noted, a strap was run between it and the ring pommel and slung over the shoulder like a rifle.

Gav

Neil · 17th January 2011, 10:12 PM

I totally hear what you are saying. But in this case I was thinking of it as the original example and later inspiration for the 9 ring sabers that we see above.

PS - I started a thread about it being used as a sling. I have only heard people talking about it and never seen an example. Clearly an example, or some real evidence needs to be seen to give the idea true credibility besides it just "making sense".

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2011, 06:42 AM

I've never seen a genuine antique 9 ring sabre but if I was to speculate the "9" I'd suggest the following;

Nine is considered to be the luckiest number because all odd numbers are considered heavenly and nine is the highest single digit odd number.
Nine also symbolizes the nine layers of heaven and is associated with yang, male energy.

Attached is a partial snap of my antique provenanced ring back Dao, although there are not 9 rings on this example.

Gav

VANDOO · 19th January 2011, 05:34 PM

JUST A FEW THOUGHTS. WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE ON THE LAST EXAMPLE ? JUDGEING FROM THE RUST PATTERN IT MAY HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF STORAGE SCABBARD AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN ALONG THE SIDE WHERE THE RINGS ARE LOCATED. IT WOULD NEVER FIT SNUG IN A FULL SCABBARD AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DRAW IF ANY RESTRICTION WAS PRESENT.
THE SWORD COULD BE USED TO MAKE A LOT OF NOISE PERHAPS TO DISTRACT OR ALARM LIKE WHEN A RATTLE SNAKE RATTELES ITS TAIL.

I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING SOME RINGS ON THE BLADES OF SOME OF THE LARGE CHINESE POLE ARMS AS WELL. OF COURSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN IN A CHINESE KUNGFU MOVIE UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH IS OFTEN BURIED IN ALL THE FANTASY ENTERTAINMENT , AND THAT IS MOSTLY WHAT WE SEE.

fearn · 19th January 2011, 05:46 PM

I've seen 9-ring pu dao type weapons, at least in modern form.

What I would like to see is how many rings there are on older swords, like Gavin's example. I'm interested in seeing if we can figure out when the nine rings got formalized.

Best,

F

Neil · 19th January 2011, 07:53 PM

Nice, can we see the whole thing. I am always jealous of how much cool stuff Gavin has.

The dragon engraving looks like other swords I have seen in the late Qing and early Republic eras. The bamboo pattern on the spine and guard are fancy as well. Its seems to me that this sword was meant to be eye catching in many ways beyond just the rings. Is that possibly another symbol or embellishment on the side of the blade near the guard.

This is the first of what appears to be an older multi-ringed Chinese saber I have ever seen. Thank you for sharing.

I do have to say though in my opinion the nine/multi ring saber concept seems to be more useful in showmanship, than practicality in combat.

Gavin Nugent · 20th January 2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

JUST A FEW THOUGHTS. WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE ON THE LAST EXAMPLE ? JUDGEING FROM THE RUST PATTERN IT MAY HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF STORAGE SCABBARD AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN ALONG THE SIDE WHERE THE RINGS ARE LOCATED. IT WOULD NEVER FIT SNUG IN A FULL SCABBARD AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DRAW IF ANY RESTRICTION WAS PRESENT.
THE SWORD COULD BE USED TO MAKE A LOT OF NOISE PERHAPS TO DISTRACT OR ALARM LIKE WHEN A RATTLE SNAKE RATTELES ITS TAIL.

I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING SOME RINGS ON THE BLADES OF SOME OF THE LARGE CHINESE POLE ARMS AS WELL. OF COURSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN IN A CHINESE KUNGFU MOVIE UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH IS OFTEN BURIED IN ALL THE FANTASY ENTERTAINMENT , AND THAT IS MOSTLY WHAT WE SEE.

Provenance; Without ging in too much detail; Peking, Boxer Rebellion.
Whilst this piece shown could well have had a scabbard, similar to that of military Dadao, I offer another explanation for its patina.
This piece was wall mounted for a very long time...in a yaght club from memory but I must check my notes. It was laying horizontal on a decorative wooden backing board and was wired to it, I'd say the years of dust and perhaps moisture in the air has added to this patina in this region.
I can also note this one makes very very little noise at all and I suspect any other genuine older version out there would also make little noise...perhaps only the modern tinny blades with larger metal rings make the noise

Gav

VANDOO · 20th January 2011, 06:38 AM

HERE IS A EXAMPLE OF A SWORD WITH RINGS AND TWO MACES. AND SOME WEAPONS ONE OF WHICH HAS A HALF MOON BLADE WITH TWO RINGS. I HAVE A CHINESE POLE ARM (BOXER REBELLION) WITH A SORT OF OPEN SCABBARD WITH RINGS ON THE SCABBARD (NO RINGS ON THE BLADE) WITH TIES TO SECURE THE BLADE IN THE SCABBARD. I THOUGHT FROM THE PICTURE PERHAPS THE SWORD HAD SOMETHING SIMULAR FOR STORAGE AND TRANSPORT. BUT STORAGE ON A WALL OR UP AGAINST SOMETHING WOULD PROTECT PARTS OF THE BLADE AS WELL.

17th January 2011, 03:17 PM	#1
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	9 Ring Broadsword Can anyone give an explanation of the 9 rings on the spine of certain Chinese broadswords? http://www.gungfu.com/pics-general/p...broadsword.jpg http://cdn2.iofferphoto.com/img/item...X5kC1LkA0B.jpg At first glance, these swords make me wonder how badly the rings would affect the cutting of things like limbs and torsos (they are weapons, after all). I can't think of any good purpose for having them, although many aspects of kung-fu are admittedly quite esoteric to me and I could well be missing some logical and tactically sensible aspect here. This thread said that the rings help in parrying/blocking, but it seems like an awful lot of work and extravagance when one could make a slightly thicker spine, instead.

17th January 2011, 08:11 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Show me Hi Queequeg, Interesting and fanciful swords notions. I've always wondered if there was such an antique dao with 9 rings and why 9 appears in modern kungfu circles....what are they based on?? To me these items they speak of are only watery stage props. You are right in what you say about blocking, why not just have a thicker spine. Show me a genuine antique dao with nine rings and I'll offer a genuine reason for the rings being there ;-) Gav

17th January 2011, 09:21 PM	#6
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Thought this might be thought provoking as well. Attached Images

19th January 2011, 06:42 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I've never seen a real 9 ring so far... I've never seen a genuine antique 9 ring sabre but if I was to speculate the "9" I'd suggest the following; Nine is considered to be the luckiest number because all odd numbers are considered heavenly and nine is the highest single digit odd number. Nine also symbolizes the nine layers of heaven and is associated with yang, male energy. Attached is a partial snap of my antique provenanced ring back Dao, although there are not 9 rings on this example. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 19th January 2011 at 09:48 AM.

19th January 2011, 07:53 PM	#12
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Nice, can we see the whole thing. I am always jealous of how much cool stuff Gavin has. The dragon engraving looks like other swords I have seen in the late Qing and early Republic eras. The bamboo pattern on the spine and guard are fancy as well. Its seems to me that this sword was meant to be eye catching in many ways beyond just the rings. Is that possibly another symbol or embellishment on the side of the blade near the guard. This is the first of what appears to be an older multi-ringed Chinese saber I have ever seen. Thank you for sharing. I do have to say though in my opinion the nine/multi ring saber concept seems to be more useful in showmanship, than practicality in combat. Last edited by Neil; 19th January 2011 at 07:54 PM. Reason: gramatic errors

17th January 2011, 08:20 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've heard several stories in kung fu schools. The rings are meant to ring when you shake them, and I think the tradition of putting rings on swords goes back quite a ways. I remember seeing a description of a sword with something like three points, four rings, and five stars in the <i>Water Margin</i>. I don't know if that's in the original 16th Century version or if it is a more recent addition. I've also seen a description of a modern Miao or Hmong shaman using a sword shaped rattle in a ritual. There are similar traditions of gold coin swords in feng shui and peach wood swords in Taoist exorcisms. The question for the nine rings is context, whether it's meant to be rung in religious dramas, or whether it's meant to be rung in a street performance to be more dramatic. My bet is both. Kungfu, like capoeira and Pentjak-Silat, has a performance branch (wushu) as well as a martial branch (guoshu), and I think the nine rings swords belong squarely in the performance arena. Best, F

17th January 2011, 08:58 PM	#5
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	This type of sword is mentioned by Philip in the following post as a street performers tool. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=boxer I think the example in the second picture is a modern reproduction. I also think there is a lot of misinformation abound in modern Chinese martial art circles about the reality of historic weaponry. I have been personally trying to unravel this puzzle for my own understanding as one such martial artist for a long time. The problem is there seems to be somewhat of an institution of misinformation related to magazine publications and kung fu books etc. versus much credible scholarship. For the record I want to say how much I appreciate this forum as a venue to see and discuss real Chinese historic arms.

17th January 2011, 10:12 PM	#8
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I totally hear what you are saying. But in this case I was thinking of it as the original example and later inspiration for the 9 ring sabers that we see above. PS - I started a thread about it being used as a sling. I have only heard people talking about it and never seen an example. Clearly an example, or some real evidence needs to be seen to give the idea true credibility besides it just "making sense".

19th January 2011, 05:34 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUST A FEW THOUGHTS. WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE ON THE LAST EXAMPLE ? JUDGEING FROM THE RUST PATTERN IT MAY HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF STORAGE SCABBARD AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN ALONG THE SIDE WHERE THE RINGS ARE LOCATED. IT WOULD NEVER FIT SNUG IN A FULL SCABBARD AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DRAW IF ANY RESTRICTION WAS PRESENT. THE SWORD COULD BE USED TO MAKE A LOT OF NOISE PERHAPS TO DISTRACT OR ALARM LIKE WHEN A RATTLE SNAKE RATTELES ITS TAIL. I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING SOME RINGS ON THE BLADES OF SOME OF THE LARGE CHINESE POLE ARMS AS WELL. OF COURSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN IN A CHINESE KUNGFU MOVIE UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH IS OFTEN BURIED IN ALL THE FANTASY ENTERTAINMENT , AND THAT IS MOSTLY WHAT WE SEE.

19th January 2011, 05:46 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've seen 9-ring pu dao type weapons, at least in modern form. What I would like to see is how many rings there are on older swords, like Gavin's example. I'm interested in seeing if we can figure out when the nine rings got formalized. Best, F

20th January 2011, 06:38 AM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS A EXAMPLE OF A SWORD WITH RINGS AND TWO MACES. AND SOME WEAPONS ONE OF WHICH HAS A HALF MOON BLADE WITH TWO RINGS. I HAVE A CHINESE POLE ARM (BOXER REBELLION) WITH A SORT OF OPEN SCABBARD WITH RINGS ON THE SCABBARD (NO RINGS ON THE BLADE) WITH TIES TO SECURE THE BLADE IN THE SCABBARD. I THOUGHT FROM THE PICTURE PERHAPS THE SWORD HAD SOMETHING SIMULAR FOR STORAGE AND TRANSPORT. BUT STORAGE ON A WALL OR UP AGAINST SOMETHING WOULD PROTECT PARTS OF THE BLADE AS WELL. Attached Images