Thumb ring

ariel · 2nd July 2005, 02:47 PM

Polish and Hungarian Hussar swords often had thumbrings. Does anybody know whether any other European swords had the same feature?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd July 2005, 03:09 PM

Hi Ariel

The Danish cavalry had several models with a thumb ring.
BTW there are other models with a leather strap for the index finger.

Jens

Chris Evans · 3rd July 2005, 12:08 PM

Hi,

All kinds of Euro swords had thumb rings. For one, lots of German rapiers had them. The thumb ring is a natural development because with many a hilt it is possible to wrap the humb around the handguard's edge, so the next step is to make a proper ring.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2005, 04:01 PM

It seems that the thumb ring prevailed on many cavalry swords well into the 18th century throughout Europe, especially as mentioned on Northern European weapons. I am wondering if the use on the Polish and Hungarian sabres of the ring came from German influence as there were clearly many settlers from there, especially in Hungary.The sabres seem hybridized by Oriental sabres as well as such features of Europe.
In "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Nuemann) there are many examples of these swords shown, as well as in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" by Wagner, as good representative sources.
As I claim no expertise whatsoever in martial swordsmanship techniques or dynamics, I would presume these rings were in place to stabilize the sword in forceful cutting, but am wondering if such a feature would apply in thrusting with the sabre.
I know that even sabres, intended obviously for cutting and slashing, had instances of 'giving point'.
Best regards,
Jim

Marc · 3rd July 2005, 04:32 PM

The thumbrings help a lot in the cutting motions, hence its prevalence in primarily cutting weapons, curved or straight. It helps to "lock" the grip when impacting, reducing the vibration and helping in the "slicing" effect, with a motion led more by the elbow and the shoulder than by the wrist, a similar effect in fact than the one produced by the disc-shaped pommel on talwars.

One has to take into account, though, that the grip is a dynamic feature in fencing, so "locking" the wrist is an option, not an obligation. Playing with the "loosensess" of the thumb there's different positions of the hand available to the user, so allowing for different cutting options and also for the use of the point. The thumbrings aren't seen in swords that don't feature a good cutting blade (not necessarily curved), and although they are indeed very usual in Eastern-Europe sabres since the 17th century, they're also frequent in other weapons, like these 16th- 17th c. schiavonas.

Marc · 3rd July 2005, 04:36 PM

There's others, too, like this 17th century "wallon" hilted straight sword:
(Images Courtesy of "Antigüedades Sala")

Marc · 3rd July 2005, 04:48 PM

And, for an interesting variation, buth with exactly the same functional purpose, take a look at this 17t-18th c. cup-hilt sword:
(Images cortesy of "Antigüedades Sala")

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2005, 12:31 AM

Hi Marc,
Thank you so much!! Excellent explanation, and great photos of some extremely nice pieces

Nicely done and much appreciated.
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 6th July 2005, 01:04 AM

Thanks, Marc, good and convincing explanation.
As a former fencer, I am intrigued by these devices: they must have been of great help in saber fencing, because they increased the stability of the cut movement and the parrying defence against a saber slash. In rapiers, they must have dictated a technique totally different from the French pattern that is based on the wrist and is aimed at thrust only. In effect, these rapiers were pallasches.

Marc · 6th July 2005, 09:42 AM

Thank you for the nice words, Jim, it's always a pleasure.

I, alas, tend to contribute here much less than I would like...

Ariel, pallasches, indeed, also called very generally "Cut and thrust" sword, whatever utility may have such label...
No rapier that I know of features a thumbring, given the mechanics of rapier fencing they would in fact get in the way quite annoyingly. Note that here I use the word "rapier" as a general label to define a sword of Western European design from the 16th and 17th c., designed to be used for a primarily (but not necessarily "exclusively") thrusting style of fencing...

P.S. Ah, and it's "Walloon", up there, I just noticed the typo...

2nd July 2005, 02:47 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thumb ring Polish and Hungarian Hussar swords often had thumbrings. Does anybody know whether any other European swords had the same feature?

2nd July 2005, 03:09 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ariel The Danish cavalry had several models with a thumb ring. BTW there are other models with a leather strap for the index finger. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 2nd July 2005 at 03:51 PM.

3rd July 2005, 04:32 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The thumbrings help a lot in the cutting motions, hence its prevalence in primarily cutting weapons, curved or straight. It helps to "lock" the grip when impacting, reducing the vibration and helping in the "slicing" effect, with a motion led more by the elbow and the shoulder than by the wrist, a similar effect in fact than the one produced by the disc-shaped pommel on talwars. One has to take into account, though, that the grip is a dynamic feature in fencing, so "locking" the wrist is an option, not an obligation. Playing with the "loosensess" of the thumb there's different positions of the hand available to the user, so allowing for different cutting options and also for the use of the point. The thumbrings aren't seen in swords that don't feature a good cutting blade (not necessarily curved), and although they are indeed very usual in Eastern-Europe sabres since the 17th century, they're also frequent in other weapons, like these 16th- 17th c. schiavonas. Attached Images

3rd July 2005, 04:36 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	There's others, too, like this 17th century "wallon" hilted straight sword: (Images Courtesy of "Antigüedades Sala") Attached Images

3rd July 2005, 04:48 PM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	And, for an interesting variation, buth with exactly the same functional purpose, take a look at this 17t-18th c. cup-hilt sword: (Images cortesy of "Antigüedades Sala") Attached Images

3rd July 2005, 12:08 PM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi, All kinds of Euro swords had thumb rings. For one, lots of German rapiers had them. The thumb ring is a natural development because with many a hilt it is possible to wrap the humb around the handguard's edge, so the next step is to make a proper ring. Cheers Chris

3rd July 2005, 04:01 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	It seems that the thumb ring prevailed on many cavalry swords well into the 18th century throughout Europe, especially as mentioned on Northern European weapons. I am wondering if the use on the Polish and Hungarian sabres of the ring came from German influence as there were clearly many settlers from there, especially in Hungary.The sabres seem hybridized by Oriental sabres as well as such features of Europe. In "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Nuemann) there are many examples of these swords shown, as well as in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" by Wagner, as good representative sources. As I claim no expertise whatsoever in martial swordsmanship techniques or dynamics, I would presume these rings were in place to stabilize the sword in forceful cutting, but am wondering if such a feature would apply in thrusting with the sabre. I know that even sabres, intended obviously for cutting and slashing, had instances of 'giving point'. Best regards, Jim

6th July 2005, 12:31 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Marc, Thank you so much!! Excellent explanation, and great photos of some extremely nice pieces Nicely done and much appreciated. All the best, Jim

6th July 2005, 01:04 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks, Marc, good and convincing explanation. As a former fencer, I am intrigued by these devices: they must have been of great help in saber fencing, because they increased the stability of the cut movement and the parrying defence against a saber slash. In rapiers, they must have dictated a technique totally different from the French pattern that is based on the wrist and is aimed at thrust only. In effect, these rapiers were pallasches.

6th July 2005, 09:42 AM	#10
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thank you for the nice words, Jim, it's always a pleasure. I, alas, tend to contribute here much less than I would like... Ariel, pallasches, indeed, also called very generally "Cut and thrust" sword, whatever utility may have such label... No rapier that I know of features a thumbring, given the mechanics of rapier fencing they would in fact get in the way quite annoyingly. Note that here I use the word "rapier" as a general label to define a sword of Western European design from the 16th and 17th c., designed to be used for a primarily (but not necessarily "exclusively") thrusting style of fencing... P.S. Ah, and it's "Walloon", up there, I just noticed the typo...