New acquisition; Sundang for comment

[drac2k]

I was recently able to pick this sundang up on e-way very reasonably.The silver inlay is completely intact even though it looks like some of it might be missing; probably a shadow cast during pictures.I would be interested in any feed back, especially regarding the age .

[David]

Very nice kris. Very well crafted and a good deal of the inlay intact. I would say it is late 19th century.
I'm not sure that "sundang" is the proper name for this weapon in Moroland. But i have been led to believe that half wavy blades like this are called Luma (Maguindanao tribe), Ranti (Maranao tribe) or Kalis Taluseko (Tausug tribe). Kris seems to be a good catch-all for these blades whether straight or wavy. Apparently the Maranao tribe do use the term sundang to refer to straight kris. The word sundang also seems to be the popular term for the Malay counterpart of the Moro kris.
Maybe others have more or different information on this name game.

[Ian]

Nice kalis taluseko. I think the blade was probably made in Mindanao in the first half of the 20th C, but the metal decoration on the hilt looks more recent Maranao work with the typical okir motifs and short metal plates. A very clean sword.

Similar kris are fairly common in a few antique stores in and around Zamboanga, and there are a couple of sellers on eBay who work that area and regularly put similar items up for auction. Many items have vintage blades with newer hilts and some are entirely new. Much of what shows up online from these dealers comes from the Lake Lanao region (Maranao people), with some Maguindanao, Tausug and Yakan items as well.

Ian.

[kino]

I tend to believe that the metalwork on the hilt is original to the blade. The blade is still beefy, it doesn't seem to have been used much and so it hasn't been thru the grindstone much either. It was probably collected early on in its life. I'm with David on the age estimation.
Going by the number of waves, it's a limaseko.
Nice sword, I like the way the wire was twisted before being inlaid into the blade.
Congrats on a nice catch Mr. drac2k.

[drac2k]

Thank you all for the wealth of information and the complements.

[Sajen]

Hello Drac2k,

very nice kris indeed and I agree with the others, late 19th century until early 20th century, very nice blade.

At some pictures is to seen that there are traces of an old wrapping under the hilt fittings, can you tell which material it is? On the pictures is look like leather which would be unusual and also would confirm that the hilt fittings of later date IMHO. Personally I would give the hilt a new cord wrapping between the metal rings. Are you going to etch the blade?

Regards,
Detlef

[RSWORD]

Nice sword. The blade would benefit from a light etch because I am pretty sure I am seeing signs of twistcore in the center panel. Dave, have a good close look at that center section in good sunlight and see if you can see the pattern.

[drac2k]

Wow, you guys are observant. I looked at the material under the bands on the hilt and while it could be some type of cloth or a fish skin, I think it may be a very, very thin leather, with spots darkened by corrosion from previous older or missing bands from the handle.
I thought that the blade might have some type of patterning, but many times that is wishful thinking ;however after holding it under strong natural light, I can say that the center panel is indeed twist core.
I will not etch the blade, as I do not know what I am doing and would not risk harming it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by drac2k

.... ;however after holding it under strong natural light, I can say that the center panel is indeed twist core.
I will not etch the blade, as I do not know what I am doing and would not risk harming it.

Hello Drac2k,

you couldn't harm the blade when you follow my advice: use a solution from 20% vinegar essence with water, heat it and brush the warm blade with a brush until you see the effect. When you don't like it you can scrub the blade with steel wool until the lamination effect is gone since the effect is only superficial, there isn't any risk to harm the blade, believe me. Don't forget to neutralize the blade with baking soda or soap. An only light scrub with steel wool give the blade back a shiny surface. When you never try it you never will learn it! This blade is worth to show the twist core lamination.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kino

...
Going by the number of waves, it's a limaseko.
...

Kino:

I have noted that lima (meaning five) is the only number that is consistently called the same name in most (if not nearly all) languages of SE Asia. Five is lima in Malay, Indonesian, and a host of Philippine dialects (including Tagalog, Igorot, Cebuano, Warai, Tausug, Maranao, Yakan, and so on). Not sure that this means anything, or adds to the discussion here, just an observation.

Ian.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Nice sword. The blade would benefit from a light etch because I am pretty sure I am seeing signs of twistcore in the center panel. Dave, have a good close look at that center section in good sunlight and see if you can see the pattern.

Anytime I see well executed fullers, especially silver filled, I am curious about twistcore. Of course it is no guarantee, but it is certainly worth the effort to find out.

Agreeing with Kino and Dave, this was all "born together". It's a shame the cording has worn, but it also confirms age.

Maguindanao blades are typically beefy and wicked sharp...this one looks no different.

Congrats on a good piece!

[CCUAL]

Nice kris.

[drac2k]

Thanks, the sword is "wicked sharp." Thank you Sajen for the advice on how to etch, however I think that I'll experiment with something else before tackling this one.
Wow , looking at your sword, almost makes me want to try !

[David]

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thanks, the sword is "wicked sharp." Thank you Sajen for the advice on how to etch, however I think that I'll experiment with something else before tackling this one.
Wow , looking at your sword, almost makes me want to try !

It is really as simple as Detlef suggests Drac. Working with vinegar you really can't screw it up. It is too weak an acid to do any damage to the sword and if you don't like the results you can simply buff it off with fine grade steel wool.

[kino]

I would make sure the silver inlays are flush and firm within the channels, you don't want to risk snagging a stray with a steel wool thread and pulling it out.

[DaveS]

A very nice complete kris. I think rsword is right, it seems to have a twist-core down the center. Detlef is also right in that you can't hurt a blade using just warm vinegar. If you don't like the results just give the blade a light polish and it will look like the same as before, you can't really hurt it.....Dave

[Ian]

Guys:

The silver work of drac2K's kris is 20th C Maranao work from the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao, and almost certainly from the second half of the 20th C. My source for this information is a Filipino antique dealer in Ermita, Manila by the name of Mr. Ven Magbuhos whom some of you may have dealt with. Mr. Ven has been in the antique business there for 40+ years and specializes in Moro artifacts, including kris and other edged weapons. He states that the type of silver engraving (with semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands) on the kris that started this thread appeared in the 1950s and became more common in the 1970s. Its presence on the hilts of kris and barung greatly increased in the 1990s as Maranao craftsmen ramped up their output to meet the demand of tourists and collectors. He has personally seen hundreds of examples of this kind of silver work on kris, gunong, and barung coming out of the Maranao area in the last 20-30 years. He has seen much that dates from this period but nothing that could be dated reliably before about 1950. He specifically notes that old blades are often "dressed up" with newer, silver ornamented hilts to enhance their value and increase profit.

So if this is a late 19th C or early 20th C blade, then we need to acknowledge that the hilt decorations are a later feature. The underlying hilt may well be original, with just the silver work being added later. Incidentally, the pinning of the silver plates to the hilt with small nails is uncommon, and is again more likely to occur on late 20th C examples.

I don't think this later embellishment detracts from the sword. After all, these are changes made within the culture of origin and in keeping with Maranao styles. The kris remains genuinely Moro.

Just to do a little more research on this style, I went to Artzi Yarom's web site and examined the 95 or so Moro kris that he has sold. I found only one that resembles the subject of this thread (pictures posted below). Again, the silver work on the hilt is pristine although showing a little age. Note the perfectly preserved scalloped edge of the band adjacent to the pommel. This is an area where one would expect to see small distortions or dings to the soft silver with use (certainly it is an area where silver-hilted dha often show incidental damage). There is no damage here even though the adjacent wooden pommel shows some scuffs, cracking and other age-related trauma. This one also seems to have been redressed since it was made.

Lastly, there is one example of a similar hilt in Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords--see p. 60 and Fig. 47 (left example). This appears to be a Maranao kris, but unfortunately the hilt is not shown in close detail.

Ian.

[drac2k]

Gentlemen, in regards to the etching , I will consider it .
In regards to the silver dressings on the hilt, it could very well be later work, to enhance the piece for sale, however I'm curious as to what is missing or why the job was only half done ? It doesn't appear that the sword has suffered any great trauma so how would a half dressed hilt be more commercially viable?
Ian, I think you made a very good argument and supported it very well with your documentation and I have no problem accepting it

[CharlesS]

Ian,

Good thread and some good points.

Regarding Artzi's example, it is also pretty clear that the grip cording there is much later and not in the generally seen traditional Moro style.

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!

To me this works towards confirming your idea regarding the hilt, and it has taught me a good lesson on not taking quick glances too seriously in lieu of much closer inspection!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!(

Hello Charles,

have a look to post #6 & #8, I've asked drac2k already about this.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Ian, i would not necessarily argue with you that the silver rings on Drac's hilt are a more recent addition, however, i will question whether the semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands are only something to be found post 1970s on Moro weapons. Of course, i can't speak for this kris beyond 1980 when i purchased it, but i pulled it out of an old antique mall in a barn in New Hampshire where it had obviously been languishing for quite some time. The silverwork is of a higher quality than the examples shown here and i believe that quality of the silver itself is higher as well. The asang-asang is suassa. The cording was gone and the red stuff was something i added at the time (this was my first and i was completely ignorant of what type of cording to use and never got around to changing it) and whatever was attached to the pommel was long gone.
While i'm not sure i can immediately find another kris as an example these two gunongs that are certainly from around 1900 also use semicircular marks and scalloped edges, so it is clearly a design element that was found in Moro weapons long before 1970.

[CharlesS]

David,

To my eyes(clearly failing...see above!) the quality of the silver work on the kriss you have shown us is quite different and in a different league quality-wise than drak2k's. Yours l believe in superior both in workmanship and actual silver quality(content).

Battara is the guy to better comment on that.

[David]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

David,

To my eyes(clearly failing...see above!) the quality of the silver work on the kriss you have shown us is quite different and in a different league quality-wise than drak2k's. Yours l believe in superior both in workmanship and actual silver quality(content).

Battara is the guy to better comment on that.

Yes Charles, i completely agree. The quality is indeed much higher and the silver is a higher quality as well. I posted it in response to Ian's suggestion that "semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands" was something introduced to Moro weapons in the 1950s. I do agree with Ian that Drac's example probably had these silver bands added later in the life of the weapon, but i believe these motifs and design elements have been used in Moro work since at least 1900.

[David]

Here is another old kris hilt with silver bands that displays some elements of semi-circles and what might be described as scalloped edges. Please forgive the bad photography of a quick iPhone photo.

[Battara]

Hi folks.

Since my name was used (CharlesS) and I have been watching this excellent thread, I'll give my thoughts:

The semi-circular motifs, okir vines, etc. are very old and I have seen them in documented and provenanced things, including bladed weaponry. That being said, I agree with Ian in that drac2k's example of silver work is very recent. Here are some of the reasons I suggest this:

1.The mounts look to me (based on the pictures) to be nickel silver (nickel/copper content without any silver), or at most, a form of silver/copper alloy lower than coin silver (- 80%). I can tell by the color and patina.

2. The metal used for these mounts appear very thick. High grade silver is expensive and thus would be thinner. You see earlier pieces with this kind of thinner silver.

3. As work goes, the work on the bands appear very flat. I am used to seeing on older documented and provenanced pieces a more 3D effect that occurs with chasing/stamping work done on thinner silver, which gives more than thicker nickel silver.

4. The style of the work done is not as tight nor detailed as that of earlier work, like that of the turn of the 20th century and earlier. Earlier Maranao and Maguindanao okir silver work is more detailed and leaves less open spaces and untouched areas. Thus earlier work seems to be more complex, full, and tight. I have noticed later work from Marawi City (where most of the work now originates) seems simpler and more open.

These observations apply to gold and gold plate as well.

Also I have been studying these forms for years so that I can replicate them in the old styles to match old pieces.

I hope this helps.