African Knife/Sword With Copper Wire Work

Robert · 21st February 2010, 09:37 AM

Just ended http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 What can anybody tell me about this item? I found it very interesting that the scabbard as well as the hilt on this piece is covered in copper. Is this a status piece, a show of wealth, for everyday use or just a fancy tourist item?

Sorry about the picture quality, it is from the auction. I will post more and hopefully better pictures after it arrives. All comments on where this is from, age or any other information would be greatly welcomed as I know very little of African weapons. I would guess that this could be Ngbandi but would appreciate help from the experts.

Robert

Sajen · 21st February 2010, 01:19 PM

Hi Robert,

I know nothing about african weapons but this don't look tourist to my eyes and I think that you have done very good by this buy.

Detlef

Flavio · 21st February 2010, 02:28 PM

Yeah! you do a very excellent buy!!

Robert · 21st February 2010, 03:05 PM

Sajen and Flavio,
Thank you both for your kind words. I am happy that this is not just tourist junk and turned out to be a good buy as I was very worried when no one else bid on it besides one other person who only bid the opening amount and myself. Do either of you have any idea of the age of this piece? Thank you both again.

Robert

katana · 21st February 2010, 03:19 PM

Hi Robert,
bargain buy

Congolese (most likely) the wire wrap looks recent....hopefully a recent repair and not an indication of recent manufacture, although the scabbard and blade seem to have some age... so 'repair' seems most likely.

Regards David

Robert · 21st February 2010, 03:38 PM

Hello David, and thank you for responding to this post. I believe the grip binding looks the way it does because the seller started to "clean" the item up before placing it up for auction.

Robert

Sajen · 21st February 2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Sajen and Flavio,
Thank you both for your kind words. I am happy that this is not just tourist junk and turned out to be a good buy as I was very worried when no one else bid on it besides one other person who only bid the opening amount and myself. Do either of you have any idea of the age of this piece? Thank you both again.

Robert

No idea of age but when I look to the scabbard I think that the piece have a good age.

Lew · 21st February 2010, 04:43 PM

My guess it's one of these tribes Ngbandi, Yakoma, Sango?

Robert · 21st February 2010, 05:26 PM

Hello Lew,
Because of all the copper work my guess was also Ngbandi, but as I said earlier my knowledge of African weapons is VERY limited.

I will see what I can find on Yakoma and Sango weapons. Thank you for your help.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 21st February 2010, 05:55 PM

Very cool, more than makes up for the recent bad buy. You lucky chap.

Freddy · 21st February 2010, 07:21 PM

Yep, you hit the jackpot !

Here is a pic of a similar piece from the book 'Fatal Beauty - Traditional Weapons from Central Africa', Taiwan exhibition 2009

Robert · 21st February 2010, 07:53 PM

Tim and Freddy,
Thank you both for the pictures and kind words and yes, I do feel much better now after that horrible klewang incident.

Now I can't wait for it to get here. Still, would anyone care to offer a guess on the age of this piece?

I know with the terrible picture it would be hard if not impossible to be very accurate but just an idea would be nice. Thanks again.

Robert

Freddy · 21st February 2010, 08:10 PM

It's hard to tell the age of an African piece. The one I showed from the book is documented. The author states that it came from the collection of the Fathers Capuchins from Antwerp (Belgium) with as collection date : between 1880-1920.

I doubt that your piece is as old, but it probably dates from the 50's or 60's. In the beginning of the sixties Congo became independent and a lot of colonists returned to their homecountry, bringing with them these jewels.

I wouldn't ask the seller for more info as he gives the wrong continent as place of origin.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 22nd February 2010, 11:14 PM

Yes very good !
A nice example with the scabbard (rare).
Surely beginning of the 20th.
There is also a copper model.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 23rd February 2010, 12:09 AM

The model of the book "Fatal Beauty" (Freddy) at the exhibit in Taiwan.

Robert · 23rd February 2010, 07:49 AM

Luc,
Thank you for the pictures and information. The one with the copper blade is absolutely amazing.

I would imagine that they are quite a bit rarer that the steel bladed ones. After seeing all of the wonderful pictures that have been posted I cannot wait for mine to arrive. I just hope that when it does that it in in decent condition and that there is not a lot of unseen damage on the side of the scabbard that is not shown in the picture. Just so I do not inflict any further damage to it what would be the best way of cleaning the copper parts with out loosing the patina? Thanks to all again for all your help.

Robert

P.S.
I do know NOT to use metal polish on the copper.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 23rd February 2010, 10:37 PM

Just rub it with a soft dry cloth, it will shine without being glossy.

Robert · 23rd February 2010, 11:16 PM

Luc,
Thank you for your reply and the advice on cleaning. This is probably as good a time as any to ask a question that I have been wondering about for quite a while now. If you have a piece that has either copper or brass on it and it has heavy green oxidation on it that is eating into the metal what is the best coarse of action to take to stop it and do you completely remove the oxidation or not? I have run into this problem a few times before (especially on items that were left for years in leather sheaths) and I always just cleaned the effected area completely free of the oxidation with penetrating oil and 0000 steel wool.

Robert

Luc LEFEBVRE · 25th February 2010, 09:02 PM

There are many "schools", but personnaly I clean.
Rust and oxidation are not patina for me, so I clean my knives.
Especially if it is green oxidation, it is easy to clean to "new" copper and brass, but it also easy to make old with specific products.And you don't need a long time to have a soft matt, unpolished patina, which is better,for me , than a bad green.

Lew · 25th February 2010, 10:10 PM

I agree with Luc you should clean the piece if there is any active rust of green oxidation that could damage the piece. If we can conserve our antiques properly they will be around for many future generations to enjoy.

Robert · 25th February 2010, 10:11 PM

Luc and Lew,
Thank you for your help on the cleaning procedure. The knife has arrived today and I will post more pictures later. By looking at it I would say that it is easily late 19th to early 20th century.

Thanks again.

Robert

Robert · 26th February 2010, 03:00 AM

Hello everyone. Here are the pictures that I promised. The knife does have some damage to the wire work that should not be too difficult to repair. One of the horns on the scabbard is also partially broken and will require a little more effort in its repair. The pictures are of the knife as it arrived without anything being done to it at all. Very nicely decorated blade. The hilt on the knife is bound in some form of reptile skin (the scales are quite obvious) and then the wire. The wooden scabbard is also covered in skin of undetermined origin and then wire. I could not get a decent picture of the hilt that would show the scales though but will try again tomorrow. It looks to me that the blade had been stored in the scabbard and had become stuck from the shrinkage to the wood and skin and the damage was probably caused when the owner tried to forcibly remove it.

I would appreciate your comments and advice on what to do as far as restoration goes, or anything else for that matter. If anyone would like a picture of any particular area of the knife or scabbard just ask. Thank you for your help.

Robert

p.s.
Picture of skin on hilt added.

Tim Simmons · 26th February 2010, 07:28 PM

Really super! If it were mine I would just rub the copper as Luc says perhaps a drop of oil on the cloth. I would clean the blade to what suits my eye and sort out that curl at one of the spiky bits neat the handle. Great find.

Robert · 27th February 2010, 01:24 AM

Hello Tim,
I think that I will very carefully do just that. I also think that I will use a couple of drops of super glue to secure the one partially broken horn on the scabbard. What has me worried the most is the amount of shrinkage that there is in the wood and hide covering under the copper wire. They have both shrunken to the point that the wire is extremely loose and moves around with the slightest touch. The blade can be easily cleaned up just enough to show the decoration better and then ren-waxed for protection. The wire on the knife should also tidy up easily, I hope.

Thank you all again for your help and interest in this.

Robert

Robert · 18th March 2010, 01:32 AM

After a light cleaning and a little tidying up. Didn't want to over do this so I will probably stop at this.

Robert

Flavio · 18th March 2010, 11:15 AM

Well done

Really a very nice piece! Congrats

Freddy · 18th March 2010, 12:17 PM

Great job ! Could go right into a museum !

Lew · 18th March 2010, 05:06 PM

Nice job.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 18th March 2010, 10:15 PM

Looks super and great addition to any collection. The iron metal bits on the scabbard are also seen on the blunt ends of spears.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 19th March 2010, 12:22 AM

Yes, good job and very nice Yakoma !

21st February 2010, 09:37 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	African Knife/Sword With Copper Wire Work Just ended http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 What can anybody tell me about this item? I found it very interesting that the scabbard as well as the hilt on this piece is covered in copper. Is this a status piece, a show of wealth, for everyday use or just a fancy tourist item? Sorry about the picture quality, it is from the auction. I will post more and hopefully better pictures after it arrives. All comments on where this is from, age or any other information would be greatly welcomed as I know very little of African weapons. I would guess that this could be Ngbandi but would appreciate help from the experts. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 21st February 2010 at 10:15 AM.

21st February 2010, 05:55 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very cool, more than makes up for the recent bad buy. You lucky chap. Attached Images

22nd February 2010, 11:14 PM	#14
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Yes very good ! A nice example with the scabbard (rare). Surely beginning of the 20th. There is also a copper model. Attached Images

23rd February 2010, 12:09 AM	#15
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	The model of the book "Fatal Beauty" (Freddy) at the exhibit in Taiwan. Attached Images

26th February 2010, 03:00 AM	#22
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello everyone. Here are the pictures that I promised. The knife does have some damage to the wire work that should not be too difficult to repair. One of the horns on the scabbard is also partially broken and will require a little more effort in its repair. The pictures are of the knife as it arrived without anything being done to it at all. Very nicely decorated blade. The hilt on the knife is bound in some form of reptile skin (the scales are quite obvious) and then the wire. The wooden scabbard is also covered in skin of undetermined origin and then wire. I could not get a decent picture of the hilt that would show the scales though but will try again tomorrow. It looks to me that the blade had been stored in the scabbard and had become stuck from the shrinkage to the wood and skin and the damage was probably caused when the owner tried to forcibly remove it. I would appreciate your comments and advice on what to do as far as restoration goes, or anything else for that matter. If anyone would like a picture of any particular area of the knife or scabbard just ask. Thank you for your help. Robert p.s. Picture of skin on hilt added. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 26th February 2010 at 04:22 AM.

21st February 2010, 01:19 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,793	Hi Robert, I know nothing about african weapons but this don't look tourist to my eyes and I think that you have done very good by this buy. Detlef

21st February 2010, 02:28 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Yeah! you do a very excellent buy!!

21st February 2010, 03:05 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Sajen and Flavio, Thank you both for your kind words. I am happy that this is not just tourist junk and turned out to be a good buy as I was very worried when no one else bid on it besides one other person who only bid the opening amount and myself. Do either of you have any idea of the age of this piece? Thank you both again. Robert

21st February 2010, 03:19 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Robert, bargain buy Congolese (most likely) the wire wrap looks recent....hopefully a recent repair and not an indication of recent manufacture, although the scabbard and blade seem to have some age... so 'repair' seems most likely. Regards David

21st February 2010, 03:38 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello David, and thank you for responding to this post. I believe the grip binding looks the way it does because the seller started to "clean" the item up before placing it up for auction. Robert

21st February 2010, 04:43 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	My guess it's one of these tribes Ngbandi, Yakoma, Sango?

21st February 2010, 05:26 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Lew, Because of all the copper work my guess was also Ngbandi, but as I said earlier my knowledge of African weapons is VERY limited. I will see what I can find on Yakoma and Sango weapons. Thank you for your help. Robert

21st February 2010, 07:21 PM	#11
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Yep, you hit the jackpot ! Here is a pic of a similar piece from the book 'Fatal Beauty - Traditional Weapons from Central Africa', Taiwan exhibition 2009

21st February 2010, 07:53 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim and Freddy, Thank you both for the pictures and kind words and yes, I do feel much better now after that horrible klewang incident. Now I can't wait for it to get here. Still, would anyone care to offer a guess on the age of this piece? I know with the terrible picture it would be hard if not impossible to be very accurate but just an idea would be nice. Thanks again. Robert

21st February 2010, 08:10 PM	#13
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	It's hard to tell the age of an African piece. The one I showed from the book is documented. The author states that it came from the collection of the Fathers Capuchins from Antwerp (Belgium) with as collection date : between 1880-1920. I doubt that your piece is as old, but it probably dates from the 50's or 60's. In the beginning of the sixties Congo became independent and a lot of colonists returned to their homecountry, bringing with them these jewels. I wouldn't ask the seller for more info as he gives the wrong continent as place of origin.

23rd February 2010, 07:49 AM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Luc, Thank you for the pictures and information. The one with the copper blade is absolutely amazing. I would imagine that they are quite a bit rarer that the steel bladed ones. After seeing all of the wonderful pictures that have been posted I cannot wait for mine to arrive. I just hope that when it does that it in in decent condition and that there is not a lot of unseen damage on the side of the scabbard that is not shown in the picture. Just so I do not inflict any further damage to it what would be the best way of cleaning the copper parts with out loosing the patina? Thanks to all again for all your help. Robert P.S. I do know NOT to use metal polish on the copper.

23rd February 2010, 10:37 PM	#17
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Just rub it with a soft dry cloth, it will shine without being glossy.

23rd February 2010, 11:16 PM	#18
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Luc, Thank you for your reply and the advice on cleaning. This is probably as good a time as any to ask a question that I have been wondering about for quite a while now. If you have a piece that has either copper or brass on it and it has heavy green oxidation on it that is eating into the metal what is the best coarse of action to take to stop it and do you completely remove the oxidation or not? I have run into this problem a few times before (especially on items that were left for years in leather sheaths) and I always just cleaned the effected area completely free of the oxidation with penetrating oil and 0000 steel wool. Robert

25th February 2010, 09:02 PM	#19
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	There are many "schools", but personnaly I clean. Rust and oxidation are not patina for me, so I clean my knives. Especially if it is green oxidation, it is easy to clean to "new" copper and brass, but it also easy to make old with specific products.And you don't need a long time to have a soft matt, unpolished patina, which is better,for me , than a bad green.

25th February 2010, 10:10 PM	#20
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I agree with Luc you should clean the piece if there is any active rust of green oxidation that could damage the piece. If we can conserve our antiques properly they will be around for many future generations to enjoy.

25th February 2010, 10:11 PM	#21
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Luc and Lew, Thank you for your help on the cleaning procedure. The knife has arrived today and I will post more pictures later. By looking at it I would say that it is easily late 19th to early 20th century. Thanks again. Robert

26th February 2010, 07:28 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Really super! If it were mine I would just rub the copper as Luc says perhaps a drop of oil on the cloth. I would clean the blade to what suits my eye and sort out that curl at one of the spiky bits neat the handle. Great find.

27th February 2010, 01:24 AM	#24
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Tim, I think that I will very carefully do just that. I also think that I will use a couple of drops of super glue to secure the one partially broken horn on the scabbard. What has me worried the most is the amount of shrinkage that there is in the wood and hide covering under the copper wire. They have both shrunken to the point that the wire is extremely loose and moves around with the slightest touch. The blade can be easily cleaned up just enough to show the decoration better and then ren-waxed for protection. The wire on the knife should also tidy up easily, I hope. Thank you all again for your help and interest in this. Robert

18th March 2010, 01:32 AM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	After a light cleaning and a little tidying up. Didn't want to over do this so I will probably stop at this. Robert Attached Images

18th March 2010, 11:15 AM	#26
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well done Really a very nice piece! Congrats

18th March 2010, 12:17 PM	#27
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Great job ! Could go right into a museum !

18th March 2010, 05:06 PM	#28
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice job. Lew

18th March 2010, 10:15 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks super and great addition to any collection. The iron metal bits on the scabbard are also seen on the blunt ends of spears.

19th March 2010, 12:22 AM	#30
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Yes, good job and very nice Yakoma !