Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.

Cerjak · 8th December 2012, 04:56 PM

Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.
Hi everybody
I hope somebody could be able to tell me more about this quiet big blunderbuss. I don’t know in which language the marks in the stock are. The total size is around 125 cm for around 6 KG.
I Guess it was a English flintlock blunderbuss who was turn into percussion.
IT will be fantastic is someone will be able to translate those marks.
Best regards

Cerjak

Cerjak · 10th December 2012, 07:19 PM

still need help to translate or ID the marks .
I hope it will solved....

VVV · 10th December 2012, 07:59 PM

I don't know anything of blunderbusses.

But the motifs are Islamic talismans and the rattan bindings resembles those usually found on the Dayak mandau.
So my guess is that it might come from the Banjarmasin area in south Borneo where both these features are common.

Michael

Dom · 10th December 2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

the motifs are Islamic talismans

Hi
YES, it's Islamic talismanic writing, but, through Arabic language,
means nothing intelligible

by vocation, everything related to magic is often very obscure
for the not initiated

à +

Dom

TribalBlades · 10th December 2012, 10:04 PM

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

VVV · 10th December 2012, 10:06 PM

Dom,

Maybe the writing is based on simiya' (the art where the letters represent mathematical values of hidden words, names etc.)?

Michael

Maurice · 10th December 2012, 10:28 PM

Wow. I like this blunderbuss a lot!
Very cool. I would say Banjarmasin area also as Michael stated, as there were a lot of Blunderbusses used in the Banjarmasin war. The knots indeed looks like dayak knots used to hold the two slabs of wood of the scabbard together.

I've attached an image of some blunderbusses on a litograph of (about) 1881, Bronbeek museum Arnhem.

Thanks for sharing!
Maurice

kahnjar1 · 11th December 2012, 01:17 AM

Hi Cerjak,
I assume that there are no marks on either the lock or the barrel? The style of the weapon LOOKS British with added script and raffia barrel bands, but without any proof marks it is guesswork. The hammer looks way too rough for a British piece but it could have been replaced at some stage.
Sorry can't be of more help.
Regards Stuart

asomotif · 11th December 2012, 07:36 AM

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem

VVV · 11th December 2012, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

It's not Satan/Iblis etc. but related to djinns etc. being the 7 seals of Solomon.
See the related thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16496

Michael

Cerjak · 11th December 2012, 06:38 PM

I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss.

kind regards

Cerjak

archer · 11th December 2012, 07:41 PM

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

kahnjar1 · 12th December 2012, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE KEY TO THE ORIGINAL ORIGIN WOULD BE ANY PROOF MARKS, EITHER ON THE VISIBLE PARTS OF THE BREECH AREA OF THE BARREL, OR THEY COULD BE UNDERNEATH. SINCE THE BANDS ARE RATTAN OR RAFFIA IT WOULD BE A DELICATE OPERATION TO REMOVE THEM SO THAT THE BARREL CAN BE LIFTED.
ONE FURTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT THERE COULD BE MARKS INSIDE THE LOCK.
STU

Cerjak · 12th December 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

dear steeve

Yes I confirm you it was previously a flintlock blunderbluss.
Kind regards

cerjak

asomotif · 12th December 2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?
Best regards,
Willem

small reminder. maybe the decoration can indicate a certain origin

asomotif · 15th December 2012, 10:51 PM

I found this talismanic inscription on a website with Aceh swords.
In this case it is part of a peudeung which was also discussed onthis forum once.

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

Cerjak · 16th December 2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem

Dear Willen

Thank you very much for this very interesting link ,I will try to take some beteer pics from the top barrel

Regards
Cerjak

Cerjak · 16th December 2012, 03:59 PM

barrel pics

kai · 16th December 2012, 10:55 PM

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

asomotif · 17th December 2012, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.
Does it to you ?

I hope that someone can check the writting and confirm or rule out jawi.

asomotif · 17th December 2012, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

barrel pics

oops, almost forgot the big WOW

for the decoration.

Envy is turning to a new shade of green here

Best regards,
Willem

mohd · 18th December 2012, 04:52 AM

Hi Willem, got your email.
So sorry for the late reply.
I was moving to Alor Setar some 460 km north of Kuala Lumpur.
I still don't have internet access at home and I have to go to cybercafe instead.

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.
And I'm not trained in that discipline.
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic

While the third line .. have to look further because I haven't found the similar wafaq .. will take some time because without internet access at home I'm a lot slow you know

Hope this helps a little.

mohd

kai · 18th December 2012, 08:20 AM

Hello Willem,

Quote:

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.

True - sorry for being terse. The silver inlay motif does look like Straits Chinese influence to me; they had a strong settlement in Banjarmassin and a lot more cultural interchange seems to have taken place there (compared to Aceh).

I can't remember having seen similar notches before though. Any similar examples (from firearms or other implements) throughout Asia?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 18th December 2012, 08:28 AM

Hello Mohd,

Thanks a lot for chiming in while being busy!

Quote:

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.

Is the round inscription from the other side of the stock also a wafaq?

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 18th December 2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mohd

(snip)
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

mohd

Mohd,

Please explain how a straight line of symbols (Khatim Sulaiman) can be a wafaq ("magic square")?
Doesn't it have to be several lines, like a square or rectangle?
Or did you mean that the line with the symbols of Raja/Nabi Sulaiman (Solomon) is part of a wafaq?

Michael

Dom · 18th December 2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mohd

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic

Salam Bro.
thanks for the compliment ... I will forward it to the right person

unfortunately, I will not be available, from this evening (18th Dec.) until end of the week,
we are closing our home in Cairo - Egypt, and we will travel to Paris - France,
re-opening, gardening even if it's winter, collecting the most valuable weapons (for me

) , from here and there
and your story is .... an headache in perspective,

but I've some documentation, about "talismans matter" Islamic and pre-Islamic period, in Paris, may be should be an help

best regards

à +

Dom

asomotif · 19th December 2012, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mohd

Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic

mohd

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.

If I understand it right, these are all wafaq related inscritpions, and not a word Jawi. So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region. (sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war

)

I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference.

Best regards,
Willem

Rick · 19th December 2012, 02:32 PM

Thank you Willem .

I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

asomotif · 19th December 2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you Willem .

I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

VVV · 19th December 2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

8th December 2012, 04:56 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss. Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss. Hi everybody I hope somebody could be able to tell me more about this quiet big blunderbuss. I don’t know in which language the marks in the stock are. The total size is around 125 cm for around 6 KG. I Guess it was a English flintlock blunderbuss who was turn into percussion. IT will be fantastic is someone will be able to translate those marks. Best regards Cerjak Attached Images

10th December 2012, 07:19 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	still need help still need help to translate or ID the marks . I hope it will solved....

10th December 2012, 10:28 PM	#7
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Wow. I like this blunderbuss a lot! Very cool. I would say Banjarmasin area also as Michael stated, as there were a lot of Blunderbusses used in the Banjarmasin war. The knots indeed looks like dayak knots used to hold the two slabs of wood of the scabbard together. I've attached an image of some blunderbusses on a litograph of (about) 1881, Bronbeek museum Arnhem. Thanks for sharing! Maurice Attached Images

11th December 2012, 06:38 PM	#11
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	there is in this place so much knowledge ! I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss. kind regards Cerjak

11th December 2012, 07:41 PM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Conversion Maybe? Hi, Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve Attached Images

10th December 2012, 07:59 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I don't know anything of blunderbusses. But the motifs are Islamic talismans and the rattan bindings resembles those usually found on the Dayak mandau. So my guess is that it might come from the Banjarmasin area in south Borneo where both these features are common. Michael

10th December 2012, 10:04 PM	#5
TribalBlades Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 33	i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan. but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

10th December 2012, 10:06 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Dom, Maybe the writing is based on simiya' (the art where the letters represent mathematical values of hidden words, names etc.)? Michael

11th December 2012, 01:17 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Cerjak, I assume that there are no marks on either the lock or the barrel? The style of the weapon LOOKS British with added script and raffia barrel bands, but without any proof marks it is guesswork. The hammer looks way too rough for a British piece but it could have been replaced at some stage. Sorry can't be of more help. Regards Stuart

11th December 2012, 07:36 AM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Wow ! lovely piece. There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ? Best regards, Willem

15th December 2012, 10:51 PM	#16
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I found this talismanic inscription on a website with Aceh swords. In this case it is part of a peudeung which was also discussed onthis forum once. http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

16th December 2012, 03:59 PM	#18
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	barrel pics barrel pics Attached Images

16th December 2012, 10:55 PM	#19
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO. I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region. Regards, Kai

18th December 2012, 04:52 AM	#22
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	Hi Willem, got your email. So sorry for the late reply. I was moving to Alor Setar some 460 km north of Kuala Lumpur. I still don't have internet access at home and I have to go to cybercafe instead. Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq. And I'm not trained in that discipline. Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic While the third line .. have to look further because I haven't found the similar wafaq .. will take some time because without internet access at home I'm a lot slow you know Hope this helps a little. mohd

19th December 2012, 02:32 PM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thank you Willem . I feel a little bit better about my guess now . Last edited by Rick; 19th December 2012 at 04:06 PM.